hmm [/b][/quote] Hmm what? You're not proving your point here at all. The topic at hand is some wacked out girl who threw her child out the window after giving birth. She could have put it up for adoption. Now, let's say she was raped. Regardless, she could have put the child up for adoption. Let's say she can't/won't get an abortion. Regardless, she could have put the child up for adoption. Let's say she was stupid and fucked around with some guy (or he peer pressured her, like it makes a difference) to have sex and then she decided not to do anything about it. Regardless, she could have put the child up for adoption. Look, I really hate being an asshole about this but everytime I shove adoption in your face, it's like you ignore it. It's a great alternative.
what the fuck? you cant read? i was referring to the issue about not wanting a child, in any circumstance, not the one about this particular teenage girl. HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA Thanks for proving my point. If you don't want a kid, then don't fuck or use protection. That's the risk you take when you fuck whether you want to except it or not. As for the maybe she was raped idea? Duffy answered it for me. Do something about it. Don't be a dumbass and let it sit inside you until it's time to give birth and you decide to kill it.[/b][/quote] then, i said and see the little numbers? they correspond to each point, which are different. now, ive given you each step to understand this because grasping concepts seem to be awfully difficult for you. instead of telling me how i proved your point or that my argument is invalid, you should stop to think about it first.
You know what? Forget it, why bother? You're obviously not even reading my responses at all. PyRoMaNiaK, I give up, this is hopeless. ADOPTION.
well i was editing my post to add in the adoption thing on this case because i forgot to. anyways, im pro-choice, not pro-life (and with any of those adoption, not abortion issues), but if the baby is already born, like in this situation, then yes, i think it should be put up for adoption. but then again, i guess she didnt give birth in a hospital where they can actually get the baby from her to put into adoption. the whole story isnt really there, so maybe adoption wasnt possible for some reason.
Having sex for pleasure is what separates us (and the dolphins, oddly enough) from the rest of the animal kingdom. Simply stated, to deny two people the right to fuck and not want a child is LITERALLY inhuman. And it seems you're underestimating the trauma that a mother goes through with child birth. Edit: This is to Vampire, AND I haven't even gone into the effects of foster homes on a child...but that's another story. Plain and simple, a woman shouldn't have to put up with the stress and possibly LIFE THREATENING labor that goes along with child birth. If you want to get technical, abortion is much safer to the mother than child birth itself. According to the NAF, the chance of the mother dying is 11 times greater if she goes through child birth than if she were to abort.
So what? That's not your decision to make. I never said I was against abortion. I'm pro-choice but keeping it very limited. And oh please, foster homes may seem bad but at least the child is living.
I'm saying adoption isn't the end all be all solution, it has many hardships and reprocussions, as well as producing an unwanted child. At the risk of seeming insensitive, foster homes are the homes of unwanted children that were brought into the world reluctantly. Maybe some day a wanting couple will come along and adopt. But either way, that's something huge to loom over a child. Studies have shown that most of these kids tend to have social and emotional problems later in life. Makes their existance seem somewhat...hollow..no? A woman has the right to abort an unwanted child, instead of going through the more risky and traumatic ordeal of child birth.
Oh puh-lease. "Studies." Like saying that makes your argument any more correct. Look, we all take risks everyday. The entire point I'm trying to make that I've been saying from the beginning is that this girl should have been more responsible. I don't have to know all the facts -- she threw a baby over a balcony -- there's no question she was irresonsible about it. Abortion is one solution so is adoption. Either way, she was wrong. No question.
Then she should have been responsible. She should have thought before she acted. [/b][/quote] THANK YOU!!! If she was raped then okay, very sad, but that's no excuse to kill an innocent. End of.
i had a hard childhood of violence and abuse in family and bullying out of it, had a rough ride all along, i dont feel my life at all as hollow, in fact richer, those experiences somehow open your eyes and you treasure things that are good in your life more then people who had never lost them. i see people from good backround families taking things for granted and being unaprociative about what they have, where i say people who had been thru a hell of a lot dont. they worked for everything they have that much harder. and in general are more awake to life, because they worked it the hard way and payed the prize. murdering your kid has more repercussions then adoption. are you saying throwing a kid out of balcony is better then adoption? because she might have left it too long for abortion. maybe all unwanted kids should be dealt that way then? half of the mankind is also a result of accidents, shall we have a poll how many people on this forum had been planned? does it mean those of us who have been unwanted and unplanned have a hollow existence, are screwed up and have social inadequacies? get real. pyromaniak, i was just out of teen years when i got pregnant, have you been pregnant? i had to have emergency ceasarian, listen, however much it hurts, so what? its so much pain but by the end of it you forget it, and dont underastimate the body's healing abilities, the younger you are the more amazing. i agree with vampire even though i would put myself to be irresponsible by his measures, but i havent thrown my kid out of the balcony, i take responsibility by being the best mother i can be and take full responsibility for my irresposibility upon conception by taking on the consequence by the best means i have. not all women are scared to death by giving birth. women had been thru it since the beginning of mankind, the fear is instilled, there are culteres where women learn from the elders that labor is the best experience of their life, they are actually in bliss while giving birth, strange is in it? think about that. that parasite has half of your dna by the way and it really kills you doesnt it? and as a woman you aint built to take all that on at all? all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all. the way you talk about pregnancy sounds as if you hate female body and its functions, there is nothing shameful disgusting hateful about giving birth. for many women its a rite of passage into womanhood. even though my child wasnt planned it didnt feel like parasite in my uterus at all, my body and its fertility didnt scare me or disgust me. it was actually a privilidge, i love my body and give it respect, not disgust. biologically i am female species and as such my body is made for that, its not a violation having a child growing in you. women who are raped go thru feelings like that but getting pregnant and having to abort wouldnt have to give feelings like pregnancy is something against you and making you less. i have had friends who had to abort child, they didnt feel that way, they were sad for what they couldnt have, they were upset about the situation, but not that the baby was a parasite attacking their womb and threatening their vagina and putting them into prospect of being in labour pain at all.i in fact never met a woman feeling about it that way, only a few friends who have been raped or sexually abused by parents and they tried to overcome that.
i had a hard childhood of violence and abuse in family and bullying out of it, had a rough ride all along, i dont feel my life at all as hollow, in fact richer, those experiences somehow open your eyes and you treasure things that are good in your life more then people who had never lost them. i see people from good backround families taking things for granted and being unaprociative about what they have, where i say people who had been thru a hell of a lot dont. they worked for everything they have that much harder. and in general are more awake to life, because they worked it the hard way and payed the prize. murdering your kid has more repercussions then adoption. are you saying throwing a kid out of balcony is better then adoption? because she might have left it too long for abortion. maybe all unwanted kids should be dealt that way then? half of the mankind is also a result of accidents, shall we have a poll how many people on this forum had been planned? does it mean those of us who have been unwanted and unplanned have a hollow existence, are screwed up and have social inadequacies? get real. pyromaniak, i was just out of teen years when i got pregnant, have you been pregnant? i had to have emergency ceasarian, listen, however much it hurts, so what? its so much pain but by the end of it you forget it, and dont underastimate the body's healing abilities, the younger you are the more amazing. i agree with vampire even though i would put myself to be irresponsible by his measures, but i havent thrown my kid out of the balcony, i take responsibility by being the best mother i can be and take full responsibility for my irresposibility upon conception by taking on the consequence by the best means i have. not all women are scared to death by giving birth. women had been thru it since the beginning of mankind, the fear is instilled, there are culteres where women learn from the elders that labor is the best experience of their life, they are actually in bliss while giving birth, strange is in it? think about that. that parasite has half of your dna by the way and it really kills you doesnt it? and as a woman you aint built to take all that on at all? all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all. the way you talk about pregnancy sounds as if you hate female body and its functions, there is nothing shameful disgusting hateful about giving birth. for many women its a rite of passage into womanhood. even though my child wasnt planned it didnt feel like parasite in my uterus at all, my body and its fertility didnt scare me or disgust me. it was actually a privilidge, i love my body and give it respect, not disgust. biologically i am female species and as such my body is made for that, its not a violation having a child growing in you. women who are raped go thru feelings like that but getting pregnant and having to abort wouldnt have to give feelings like pregnancy is something against you and making you less. i have had friends who had to abort child, they didnt feel that way, they were sad for what they couldnt have, they were upset about the situation, but not that the baby was a parasite attacking their womb and threatening their vagina and putting them into prospect of being in labour pain at all.i in fact never met a woman feeling about it that way, only a few friends who have been raped or sexually abused by parents and they tried to overcome that. [/b][/quote] That's all well and dandy that you have such an appreciation, but the truth is most people don't. Abortion is not murder. You cannot murder something that is not a human person, I've already established this. Throwing your newborn out of a window is murder, please don't put words in my mouth. You're doing nothing but clouding the issue when you say that people's existances are unplanned. I was planned. If you weren't, that's all well and good, it does NOT mean you are unwanted, again, you're putting words in my mouth. There is a different between unplanned and unwanted. Even if a woman becomes pregnant unexpectantly, many step up to the situation and decide to provide for their kids. That's absolutely great of them, and it does not mean the child is unwanted. But if a potential mother is not ready to or CANNOT provide for their potential kid, she has the right to terminate a potential human growing within her within a certain time period, without going through the stress and possibly life threatening process of child birth. The government to tell her otherwise is absurd.
exactly, women used to die all the time in childbirth. it was a really common thing back then. and even now, there are many complications. if no women are underbuilt for their "purpose", then there wouldnt be unfirtle women. and you might think a woman's puropose in life is to have babies, but i, and many other feminists, do not believe that. little girls grow up being told how one day youre going to get married, have kids, and live happily ever after. they give you little toy babies to feed, change, and take care of, when theyre only in like first grade. thats ridiculous. then when they are teenagers, they tell them not to have sex, but if they do get pregnant they shouldnt get an abortion? its crazy how mixed messages are sent in society. but whatever, im straying from my point. my point was, not everyone thinks a woman's purpose in life is to conceive children. sure it may be necessary for a species survival, but i dont think humans need to worry about that. i think people need to stop telling their 6 year old girls that having a baby is fun, and instead of rushing into motherhood by getting pregnant, maybe they should think about the children who need homes, not make another new one.
You guys are just taking it more off topic with every post. Now we're talking about the female species' purpose?
Actually, the main problem is that there's too much to argue. Why do you think the topic of abortion is so controversial? It's because it's reliant on specifics, circumstances, definitions, and analyzing. In turn, there are a billion topics that tie into abortion itself.
exactly, women used to die all the time in childbirth. it was a really common thing back then. and even now, there are many complications. if no women are underbuilt for their "purpose", then there wouldnt be unfirtle women. and you might think a woman's puropose in life is to have babies, but i, and many other feminists, do not believe that. little girls grow up being told how one day youre going to get married, have kids, and live happily ever after. they give you little toy babies to feed, change, and take care of, when theyre only in like first grade. thats ridiculous. then when they are teenagers, they tell them not to have sex, but if they do get pregnant they shouldnt get an abortion? its crazy how mixed messages are sent in society. but whatever, im straying from my point. my point was, not everyone thinks a woman's purpose in life is to conceive children. sure it may be necessary for a species survival, but i dont think humans need to worry about that. i think people need to stop telling their 6 year old girls that having a baby is fun, and instead of rushing into motherhood by getting pregnant, maybe they should think about the children who need homes, not make another new one. [/b][/quote] those women mostly died due to lack of hygiene while the doctor or midwife delivered the baby, my mother is a midwife, so i would guess i know a bit about that. the reason why women dont die today is precisely because they dont get infected by dirty hands and dirty instruments. also midwives and doctors didnt have todays training. not to mention their poor lifestyles and hard labor would have finished them off as well. after labour also many times hight temperatures would set and at those times there were no medicines to lower it down and that was due to crossinfection. not to mention in the old ages some of the people couldnt even afford to have midwife or doctor. a lot of infertility comes down to the pollution, i dont think chemicals that are men made are intended by nature, do you? if you leave inflamation too long, you can demage your tubes and ovaries, morality around sex is different so there are sti's that can make you infertile like chlamydia. also it may be genetic defect. there are many women who have kids and high flying career there too. i was talking about biological purpose, not social one. if one chooses not to have kids, i have no problems with it, but why not use birth control and prevent pregnancy in such that way then just thinking oh lets just have fun, so what if i have to have abortion? i used to be feminist, let me tell you one thing, women are no less but no more then men and vice versa, equal power. there is so much to being appalled by pain and dangers of childbirth but underestimating that abortion is also a surgical thing that hurts and can also deem you infertile and damage you. if childbirth is not a piece of cake,abortion is neither. i am not against abortion, its anybody's choice.i am not telling people to have a kid when they dont want to what i am saying is Prevention is better then abortion. And Vampire had said so too, so i dont think i am the only one who sees the point of that. i am not gonna advocate state telling women not to have abortion neither i am for a state who will force abortion upon poor and teenage mothers either and telling them thats a way to go instead of teaching them safe sex and making contraception available and giving abortion priority over that. there are more safer means even very natural ones how not to conceive and abortion is hardly the hand it all out best solution. and if its too late to abort adoption is a solution better then throwing it from the window. i dont think anybody teaches those girls things you said these days and i dont teach mine either. she wants to be an artist and i am more likely to support her with that when she grows up if its still what she wanna do, then just to become a mum. i have a job and study besides having her too., but kids at school and at home should be told the safe sex and awareness of taking responsibility at the first instance should be priority then ok, whatever, you can always have an abortion, thats ok, if you are irresponsible when it comes to sex, there is always back door because abortion is no problem. Link 04 - neither i or you have means to know when the featus is human or not, doctors would debate it themselves with many experts and they would hesitate to proclaim 100% certainty yet you are putting yourself in position that you say that you established that featus isnt human. just because you say it is, it means it is so? i would doubt that. if you say so, provide hard core evidence of consciousness to demonstrate when it becomes human so even those doctors dont have to doubt anymore, to say somebody's existence is hollow just becuase they were unwanted is a judgement. i was planned and wanted by my father and sibling, maybe not by my mother but nevertheless she doesnt regret having me and i dont see myself as hollow existence by her hesistance to have me, and i would not make that judgement about somebody's existence either. i take my position that i may be wrong.... or right, both is possible. i would certainly not play God. what for? . my opinion might be opposite to yours, why not? it would be boring if we all think the same, do the same, behave the same, feel the same, ..... what would be point of living then? what would be a point of experiencing.... i have shared my views, i am entitled to that, .if it seems i am loosing my point of view i can learn from what you say, you can learn from what i say instead of going 'your views are dandy, this or that, you and i are entitled to it whatever they are, i am not gonna rubbish it and i do hope for the future, you'd express your opinions without pointing a finger at the poster who has oposite views, when you point a finger, at somebody 3 are pointing back at you. the same way if i put words in your mouth, if i did i apologise to you. i dont hold myself to be perfect and wont freak out and pretend to the world i am, i wouldnt be real.the fact is, that you started going against adoption when it was suggested as a solution against throwing a kid out of the window if she didnt abort the baby in time in that case as argued ,excuse me but adoption kind of is better then throwing a kid out of window., in that situation to say that adoption damages people and makes them emotionally screwed up does put you in that position maybe you werent aware that that is how it came across.i have expressed my views not to be 'right or wrong' but tried to widen the gap of looking at the topic at hand. . you make assumption that unwanted kids are screwed up, i present you with a wider view i am not clouding a topic just if you dont get a point of it. unplanned and unwanted kids have the same potential for a good life as planned and wanted as the wanted and planned kids have a potential for a life of misery. in no way i said goverment should force women into not aborting and i have not seen that suggestion from sm else, maybe you can point it out. so i do hope i am not having imaginary words coming out of my mouth either.