I'm Not Exactly Defending Bush

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Neil, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. #41
    iamrighthereandnow

    iamrighthereandnow Well-Known Member

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    radical liberalism/libertarianism in economic policy: laissez-faire, free trade, government withdrawal from the economy, and an optimistic stress on the "harmonious" effects of free enterprise capitalism.


    even your source said it rejects radical capitalism, which you have today - that does not mean its against it as it also said it rejects the revolutionary socialist systems.


    that description you posted of liberal already screams out the difference to you, anarchists don't want just reforms in the statists structure, they want the statist structure down. - in some principles the descriptions sit, but it still does not mean one and the same.

    anarchists are far left and nazis are far right, that still doesn't make them similiar or what was your point of pointing their location, i have my own eyes to see where they are, not to mention its nothing new to me.


    please stop taking victim position, its your own choice if you reply and others freedom to take upon it.

    (Like I've said: if you want to continue these debates find a non-biased political forum, please. If not, start PM'ing me or something -- can't promise I'll respond quickly, though: I've got a busy week coming up.)

    you are not a moderator here to tell me how and where to post. its you who's got a problem because you don't want to debate - but its 'my fault' if you have to reply. again, that's your own choice = i don't stand there with the gun or a whip and make you do it. you are taking that choice and You are responsible for taking that action. neither you tell people what to do - that's not on, what is on is if you ask politely and seek to reach compromise without dictating what that compromise is.
     
  2. #42
    Kris

    Kris Well-Known Member

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    I know that a lot of people don't like Bush but I don't know of anybody that could do a better job. Very few presidents have had to go through all that's happened to him this year. People may not agree with his descisions but could they make better ones? I know I couldn't. I don't like to get involved with people and their politics and It's great that people have opinions for what they think is right for their country but you can't blame everything on one person. Bush didn't just wake up one morning and say, Hey... Let's F' Up the country this year. Some things are just beyond anyones control but I think that he's handling them the best way anyone could.
     
  3. #43
    Ant

    Ant Ambient

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    No, you're right. I'm not the moderator. I asked you out of respect to please PM me or to continue this topic somewhere else as we've taken this thread completely off topic. I thought perhaps the topic starter would like us to debate this somewhere else, so that's what I proposed. I never said you had to listen, just pleaded with you to do so. If you want to continue the conversation here, so be it, but I will not. Why do you think I've been trying to stop replying to these topics? Because you, Link and myself have all taken them off-topic. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

    As far as taking the "victim position" (now that's a laughable statement), all I was trying to do was to stop from replying and ruining this topic. Could you not have at least started another topic for this debate, if you didn't want to PM me or find a political message board to post it? I was taking no such "victim position" -- I was trying to stop derailing the thread. I don't know how else to say this to you.

    And, as one last off-topic bit of information, another page of my source also said this:
    So, yes, anarchism is assumed to be left, which is considered "liberal" (and not "radical"). Thus why I said "anarchists are normally classified with liberals". Did I ever say that they should be? That's another issue entirely, and that is what you're debating. I said they are normally classified with liberals, which is true.

    Now, please... I know I'm not a moderator, but how about we take this conversation elsewhere! This is not what the topic was intended for, and I think the thread starter would appreciate if we PM'ed this out, went to another message board, or created another topic. Do it out of respect for the starter if you simply won't do it because it means agreeing with me.
     
  4. #44
    Luke

    Luke Mind Your Manners. LPA Addicted VIP

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    The last time he visited London about 350,000 people were there protesting against him :lol:

    I think the last record showed that around 70% of people in England don't like Bush, I'm of that 70%.
     
  5. #45
    Paper Cut

    Paper Cut Well-Known Member

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    My dad is in the military. He's been all over the world, and he's going over to Irag for a second time this month. Unless you actually understand what's happening, don't try to talk about it. I'm officially pissed off. This topic as been done so many times.
    I really don't see how people figure going into Iraq as a mistake. Even if it was, it would be a much bigger mistake for us to pull out now, leavng them in total anarchy. If we didn't go in, Saddam would still be "president" [as if anyone had a choice] And for those who say "we got what we deserve, we're done," how do you figure that? Those thirty thousand innocent people who died at Ground Zero... real human lives... Did they deserve it? Did they? I'm not a liberal. I'm not a conservative. Nor a republicin or a demcrat. I just go with what makes sense. I don't really see how people can't be sensitive about the war in Iraq. People, innocent and guilty alike, are dying every day at the advantage of the opposition. "Yay, we got i'm! Yay, we killied 'im!" Both sides rejoice at the loss of one enemy. Try putting yourselves in the terrorist's position. I have. I've got my facts straight and I've tried seeing through their eyes, thier perspective... And let me tell you right now... We make alot more sense than them.
    Saddam was dangerous. He had dangerous weapons. We asked peacefully. They refused. What else are we gonna do, let them kill us? No. We are gonna go over there and kick there asses.
    My dad did a presentation today. I saw the pictures on the slides. Smiling faces of Iraqi children, tears of joy from civilians who want peace and equally distributed rights. And we're giving that to them.

    That being said, I can now cry in peace.
     
  6. #46
    Luke

    Luke Mind Your Manners. LPA Addicted VIP

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    Your point is completly invalid considering the little war was over like 3 years ago and they captured Saddam and yet there are still troops in Iraq, they should bring them back home because there is no point of them being there, all that seems to happen is that more and more troops die.
     
  7. #47
    Ryan

    Ryan You Greasy Bastard LPA Super VIP

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    Well basically to put it shortly on what Neil said. George Bush is the president, there isn't a single fucking thing that you, me, your dog, your brother, or even your grandparents can do about it. I mean the only thing that could have been done is to is to vote teh son of a gun out when the election came around, well the exact opposite that the american population did. So basically in short, quite bitching about how bad the guy is and how much he screws up cause there is notihng that we as people can do. Telling people and bitching to people about another Bush screw up is like gathering together and telling people that Jenna Jameson is making another porn. Its something that we have come to expect. So quit complaining and move on, and in the mean time i'll just shut my big yap.
     
  8. #48
    Paper Cut

    Paper Cut Well-Known Member

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    That's not what this war is about. We didn't just go over there to catch Saddam, we went over to free the people. Hello? Operation Iraqi Freedom? Get it? And don't you dare say what I post is invalid. You have no idea what it's like to have your dad over there. So you don't know what's valid and what's not. Although I will admit you are well educated, you really don't know everything that's going on. Niether do I. But I know more than you do. All you talk about is the thousands of families stricken by the death of a loved one. But did you ever stop to think about the equal number of families that are proud of them? Parents that are proud to figfht for what they believe? No. It doesn't look like it.
     
  9. #49
    Luke

    Luke Mind Your Manners. LPA Addicted VIP

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    The Iraqi citizens have freedom now though...there's no reason for those troops to be there. Are you trying to say your dad want's to be there?

    IMO the only reason why that SOB Bush sent those troops in there was to get oil, capturing Saddam was just the cover for it.

    I don't disrespect troops because they are doing what they think is right however I will never agree with it if there's a way around it.
     
  10. #50
    Paper Cut

    Paper Cut Well-Known Member

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    Right. He's there for the oil. That's it. That's why gas is so expensive. To say that is completely ridiculous. Also considering the fact that most of the money spent on oil goes straight to the Iraqi people.

    Thank you for proving my point. If thetre's a way around it, you'll avoid it. That's how you live your life, isn't it?
     
  11. #51
    iamrighthereandnow

    iamrighthereandnow Well-Known Member

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    you're proud of people dying in illegal war....did Iraq attack you? how is al-quada exactly linked to Iraq? that connection had never been proven. i can post a topic on illegality of Iraq war, for sure i will, i don't plan to be on the forum after today, but maybe you can read it and think if its all american to do as governement seems fit even when its illegal, the connection of Iraq coming to attack you unjustified, the WMDs were never found. if their military was not strong enough to kick you out while you went there to 'liberate them', they'd for sure not had EVER been strong enough to attack you.(paper cut)


    that people can't do anything about things is bullshit, hadn't protesting Americans made government to retreat from the war in Vietnam? (ryan)

    PS>Ant, i approciate your efforts to stay on topic, but however you kept posting and then whinging about it. if you were worried off topic, why not start it yourself instead of asking others to do it? same when you were asked to back your claim up and you asked Link to do it. i'm leaving the forum anyway, but for sure i'll pm you to clear things out.
     
  12. #52
    Luke

    Luke Mind Your Manners. LPA Addicted VIP

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    Sorry but if you believe that the money goes to the iraqi people you are very deluded :lol:

    America owns 100% of that oil,roughly 5% of it goes towards Iraqi citizens ;)
     
  13. #53
    Ryan

    Ryan You Greasy Bastard LPA Super VIP

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    Illegal War? Well i dont see the authorities doing anytihng about it. So it must not be illegal.
     
  14. #54
    Paper Cut

    Paper Cut Well-Known Member

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    Zarkawi (sp?) is operating in Iraq and is Al Quaeda's #2 weasal. Reguarding global terrorism, Saddam personally rewarded the families of Palastinian suicide bombers. Anything else you need to know?

    Hellflame: Just because you state that as a fact doesn't make it any less bullshit.
     
  15. #55
    iamrighthereandnow

    iamrighthereandnow Well-Known Member

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    Firms with Bush-Cheney Ties Clinching Katrina Deals
    Reuters

    Saturday 10 September 2005

    Washington - Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration's first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

    At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President George W. Bush's former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work along the battered Gulf Coast.

    One is Shaw Group Inc. and the other is Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root. Vice President Dick Cheney is a former head of Halliburton.

    Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has also been selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by the hurricane. Bush named Bechtel's CEO to his Export Council and put the former CEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation.

    Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and Democratic administrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they leave office, and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq.

    Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released by Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton's work in Iraq.

    But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion.

    "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight.

    Two Bush Appointees at Halliburton

    Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root in February.

    In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal was to "educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root."

    Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since he was hired, "consulted on any specific contracts that the company is considering pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any lobbying responsibilities."

    Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed as head of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amid allegations he had padded his resume.

    A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company retained another high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine.

    Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning as deputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003 to December 2004.

    On Friday, Kellogg Brown & Root received $29.8 million in Pentagon contracts to begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi. Norcross said the work was covered under a contract that the company negotiated before Allbaugh was hired.

    Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as its chief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the Republican ticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in April, Cheney's income included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which has also won billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq.

    Cheney's office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton's current economic performance or earnings.

    Allbaugh's other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated its Web site to say: "Hurricane Recovery Projects - Apply Here!"

    Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contract for housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 million order on Friday from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

    Shaw Group spokesman Chris Sammons said Allbaugh was providing the company with "general consulting on business matters," and would not say whether he played a direct role in any of the Katrina deals. "We don't comment on specific consulting activities," he said.




    so you think these people are not greedy and would not do war for oil if their selling off america's own disaster like this?
     
  16. #56
    iamrighthereandnow

    iamrighthereandnow Well-Known Member

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    Illegal War? Well i dont see the authorities doing anytihng about it. So it must not be illegal. [/b][/quote]
    go check out the new topic
     
  17. #57
    iamrighthereandnow

    iamrighthereandnow Well-Known Member

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    al-queda had been trained and financed by CIA,

    usa also had opportunity to remove sadam in the original gulf war in the nineties, why didn't they?
     
  18. #58
    Luke

    Luke Mind Your Manners. LPA Addicted VIP

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    :lol:

    I'm not gonna argue with you because you invoke bias because your father is a troop. However perhaps you'd like to read the true facts ;)
     
  19. #59
    Paper Cut

    Paper Cut Well-Known Member

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    1.) Okay, so we all know that George Bush has promoted global warming to cause hurricanes so he can line Dick Cheney's pockets :rolleyes: Have I got this right? If not, feel free to clear it up for me.
    2.) There are only a few companies large enough to have the resources to reliably and effectively manage a job of this magnitude.
    3.) Does Bush need to start having the witnesses murdered like Bill and Hillary Clinton in Arkansas?
    4.) It is a fact that the CIA trained and supported resistence fighters in Afghanistan to counter the communist Soviet fighters. This was the Cold War. We won it.
    5.) Liberating Kuwait was the goal of Gulf War One. It was never the intention to remove Saddam.
     
  20. #60
    Ryan

    Ryan You Greasy Bastard LPA Super VIP

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    Anyways this is exactly why Neil made this topic. Is there anypoint to arguing and picking every last thing apart that Bush does wrong? I mean is it gonna change anyones opinions here? No. Because people here are either solid on thier political view and/or are too stubborn to look at the other side, or they are too young to have a view of their own and just go with what their parents say. Then there are the others on this site that I am sure are fence sitters, but i can tell you this, they sure as in the hell aren't gonna change their opinions based on what they read in here, i mean there are opinions of people aged like 7-25. So with that said, end the debate, we understand what side your on and that you hate George Bush and that your never gonna change your opinion on that, but come on do we need a damn debate on every little/ big Bush incident? NO!
     

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