August 6 - Hiroshima; August 9 - Nagasaki

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by cloudscream, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. #1
    cloudscream

    cloudscream Static

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    [video=youtube;VEHaZRyQ2E0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEHaZRyQ2E0[/video]


    Why did Japan surrender?



    "I used the deadwood to make the fire rise. The blood of innocence burning in the skies."
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2011
  2. #2
    Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    I watched Men Behind The Sun. In memoriam.
     
  3. #3
    $pvcxGhxztCasey

    $pvcxGhxztCasey meanwhile... LPA Addicted VIP

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    Act of terror.
     
  4. #4
    SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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    I won't make a judgment call on whether the dropping of either bomb was necessary, just, good, bad, an act of terror, or whatever. But having been to both cities myself, I will say that I'm glad that after all this time, both cities look as beautiful as ever. It's truly inspiring to see both of these cities, having undergone such a huge tragedy, come out better than before.
     
  5. #5
    Harlz

    Harlz More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me LPA Super Member

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    Other than the continuing radiation and high levels of new leukemia cases even today, right?
     
  6. #6
    Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    Yep.
     
  7. #7
    $pvcxGhxztCasey

    $pvcxGhxztCasey meanwhile... LPA Addicted VIP

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    And might I ask why you won't make a "judgement call" on this? You seem super proud of your country from other posts I've seen, but you basically gloss over the fact that we kicked off the nuclear age with the destruction of two Japanese cities and strong armed them into being a nation without a standing army. We remember Pearl Harbor every year, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki still feel the effects of those bombs to this day. And we have the gall to sit here and act like heroes, it's shameful.

    I might get lynched for saying that, but I've never been one to shy away from speaking my mind.
     
  8. #8
    Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    Not entirely sure who would lynch you, if anything I'm willing to bet your opinion will end up being the popular one.

    Me on the other hand, I see Imperial Japan as more of less the equivalent of the Nazis. They invaded, tortured, subjected and massacred with the best of them. Some of that torture being horrifying human experiments researching and testing biological weapons I doubt they would have hesitated to use on Chinese, Russian, or US civilians had they the opportunity.

    I'll meet halfway with the acknowledging horrifying acts of brutality happen to undeserving people during times of war, but fuck acting like it was an unprovoked overreraction.
     
  9. #9
    $pvcxGhxztCasey

    $pvcxGhxztCasey meanwhile... LPA Addicted VIP

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    I don't care what anyone does, unleashing hellfire like an atomic bomb isn't justified, no matter what. Japan might have done some horrible things, but I'm pretty sure frying several hundred thousand citizens (in Hiroshima alone) in retaliation for Pearl Harbor isn't the right choice. It was a definite overreaction, and one we've regretted ever since. WE are the source of the nuclear arms problem. Torture, human experiments, massacres... still not good enough reasons to drop nuclear bombs. Sorry, guy. There will NEVER be a good enough reason to drop a nuclear bomb. That shit will be our undoing, one day.

    If you want to get right into the brass taxes, man, we've invaded. We torture. We massacre on a small scale (sup Waco). For all I know, we experiment on humans in some government lab somewhere. I'll pretend that we aren't researching and testing biological and chemical weapons, for your sake. Well, I guess WE really aren't, we just commission other countries to do the testing, and then sell that product right back to them.

    We're just as bad. You'll never convince me different.
     
  10. #10
    Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    I don't care if you "pretend we don't" conduct human experiments on people for WMDs, for my sake, comparing goddamn Nanking to Waco makes you look ignorant as hell.
     
  11. #11
    Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    Coincidentally, I was having this same exact discussion with someone just last night regarding whether or not we were right to bomb Japan. What we both agreed upon is that bombing Japan was the right choice to get Japan out of the war, however we do not agree with the type of bomb that was used or the way in which it was done. I don't care how limited our knowledge of technology or science might've been back then, there's no justifiable excuse for dropping an Atomic bomb not once, but TWICE on Japan. If Robert Oppenheimer knew how devastating the weapon was after only TESTING the bomb in New Mexico, the United States had to know that they were dealing with a weapon that would have long lasting consequences for the people of Japan. Bombing with Napalm is one thing, using Nuclear energy to destroy a civilization for several decades is a whole other story. It's a blight on US history and I wish we never built an atomic bomb.
     
  12. #12
    Agent

    Agent Formerly known as Agent Sideburns LPA Über VIP

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    Cosign.

    Everyone should watch this doc. Absolutely gut wrenching.

    [video=youtube;DQ5R5Gpn-a8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5R5Gpn-a8[/video]
     
  13. #13
    Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    I think this is my stance as well. These days were fucked up for sure. Atomic bombs being used, Pearl Harbor, Japanese internment camps, the whole Nazi thing, and the sheer number of people that died in that war.
     
  14. #14
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    What often gets overlooked is the fact that these bombings were just an extension of an already lengthy bombing campaign. The military was systematically firebombing Japanese cities for months prior to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki incidents. Tens of thousands of civilians were slaughtered before the atom bombs were ever used.

    Yeah, the Japanese did some horrible shit and the bombings ultimately ended the war, but that doesn't make it right -- especially considering how the U.S. government so often likes to take the moral high ground in these matters. It was a goddamn act of terror, plain and simple.
     
  15. #15
    Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    The entire war was 'a goddamn act of terror', that doesn't change the fact that at some point shit needed to be stopped and that's what got the job done.
     
  16. #16
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    Shit was on the verge of stopping anyway. Japan had nearly been bombed off the face of the earth by that point. Fuck, even Eisenhower thought it was pointless.


    EDIT: I guess this fundamentally comes down to whether or not you think the ends justified the means. Personally, I don't, but I also have the benefit of hindsight.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  17. #17
    SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ, I was only saying that it's way too complicated for me to make a judgment call. It did great things for us and did horrible things for Japan, yet Japan was doing some very terrible things back then and yet so did we. You'll just go in circles, so I'd rather not get my hands dirty and just leave at that.

    Also what Raymond said.

    If that was true, I'd have been diagnosed with leukemia long ago.
     
  18. #18
    cloudscream

    cloudscream Static

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    t =

    The tragedies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are where all that denuclearization and nuclear nonproliferation rhetorics came from. Those nuclear weapons of mass destruction should never be used again, unless there are some advanced extraterrestrial beings that will try to invade the Earth. Anything that can kill a huge number of civilians with such ease doesn't deserve to be glorified and can't be ethically justified.

    The issue here isn't whether America is so evil or Japan is an innocent nation. This is about the condemnation of the use of such disproportionately destructive weapons.
     
  19. #19
    Astat

    Astat LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    By definition, an "act of terror" cannot take place between two countries who have both formally declared war upon each other, unless it's an act that directly violates any standing rules of engagement.
     
  20. #20
    Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    Thank you. The bombing can't even be called an "act of war", because an act of war is an act of aggression between two countries that are normally at peace. America directly interfered with Japan's ability to import oil and other necessities and Japan in retaliation decided to attack the United States. The attack lead to America officially declaring war on Japan, and the rest is history. We were mistaken in using nuclear weapons, but we in no way committed an act of terror OR war by using a bomb. We were at war, and bombs are unfortunately a part of war...no matter how unwelcome they may be in modern warfare.
     

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