Gay marriage legalized in the US

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Erica, Jun 26, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. #61
    Jesse

    Jesse Out of the abyss. LPA Über VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    297



    Thank you! I have a lot of gratitude for rational minded people that understand the plights that minorities face today and have faced in the past.

    As an (half) black, bisexual, atheist, I myself know the hurtfulness that intolerance brings to a great extent. Worse still, my father exhibits racist and homophobic remarks himself even though he has been a victim of racism. It is very depressing. I call him out on it every time.

    Then there are some people of sexual minorities that judge bisexuals, going so far as to say we dont exist and are just afraid to accept ourselves as gay or straight. Ignorance and intolerance are the main problems, so I'm definitely not just saying all "white" people are the only problems. It is a sad reality but it is reality and we as a species should try our best to establish a society where all people are treated justly.

    Anyway, I feel we've gotten a bit off topic so I will say for marriage, the ruling is absolutely the correct one. But personally I feel that marriage as an establishment is incredibly outdated. More and more people today are deciding to not get married, even when starting families and that is very encouraging to me. Truthfully, the only reason I see to get married is financial and health benefits which I believe should be afforted to all people and their partners regardless if they are married or not. I know this is quite a minority opinion but its just my personal viewpoint. I support anyone who wants to get married and respect them for it.

    Generally I respect everyone who is able to live their life their own way as long as they do not impede other peoples rights. Live and let live.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2015
  2. #62
    lime treacle

    lime treacle You are not alone Über Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    10,907
    Likes Received:
    115



    I agree with Jesse regarding marriage.

    Surprisingly, I also agree with what Ben said in his last post. I used not to think much about the Black History Month, but Morgan Freeman made me revise my views with his statement: "I don't need a Black History Month. Black history is American history."

    It really just comes down to looking at people as people, not as white or black people, not as gay or straight people – just people. That's what I think is right, and that's what I'm for. Having a month dedicated to a race can only drive away from that sort of outlook.
     
  3. #63
    Louis

    Louis Message me if you need to talk. We love you all. LPA Team

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2005
    Messages:
    8,769
    Likes Received:
    303



    I have a couple of responses with your thoughts here (recognizing of course that you have an opinion and you have a right to it):

    I would agree in that I do believe many people in the United States are more than willing to call others bigots, while at the same time carry with them their own bigoted tendencies and thoughts. And like you, I think that is wrong. I do not think people should demonize religion and at the same time chastise those who demonize sexual orientation. However, I think in many cases, those two are related for reasons that you ignore here. I think people are highly critical of religion, especially Christianity in the United States, because for so many people that is their justification to systematically deny a right that is not inherently a religious one (e.g. marriage), and thus to deny equal protection under the law to those people. I think a lot of people feel that, especially for Christians, they are happy to condemn that behavior, and yet happily will do something else that the bible technically disallows (e.g. eating this on the wrong day, having long hair, whatever). I think people have a right to be critical of religion when it seems as though people use it to target others. In this case, religion has been used time and time again to deny equal standing before the law to those who do not have a heterosexual orientation. Should they demonize it, or those who are religious? No. People have every right to believe what they want to believe and exercise such faith, but not insofar as it denies rights to others.

    I am no more a fan of black history month than you are, but only because I believe it ignores other oppressed groups and because it continually singles out the black community and in a way perpetuates social distinction in a demeaning way. At the same time, do understand why we have a black history month. There is a history that no one as a white person could ever say they've experienced in the United States. Slavery and Jim Crow still have their grip throughout the United States. It took a deliberately racist shooting for any state to decide to take down the Confederate Flag - a century and a half after the Civil War ended. We do not know the experience of a black person as white people. We have not lived their life. So for us to say, "Well, why not a white people month?" White people get a white person life - full of privilege and access to opportunities that are institutionally and systematically withheld from many black people (and others) - even within legal bounds. By the way, history is largely white history. What you have read in your American history books is largely through a white lens, a white male lens. This is just the truth. You shouldn't feel bad for being white, and nor should we make anyone apologize for being white. But do not forget your privilege. Be mindful of it, and instead of ignoring that it exists, think about how you might use it to help those without it.

    This country is not bending over backwards to make sure everyone gets their way. It bends over backwards to right the wrongs it has down to certain groups of people. If we were really bending over backwards, and addressing the majority's every need and whim as you mention in a later post (which I'll address), do you think gay marriage would have passed? (The answer is probably not.)

    Your examples fail you here. The truth is that the United States fails to abide by its own doctrine. The institutions of Church and State have always been intended to be separate. And yes, at the country's founding and Constitution's drafting, we had a very small but religious population. Things have changed. The country is far more secular than it ever was, and it still stands that Church and State must remain separate. Removing "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and even from our currency is honestly the right thing to do - otherwise we continue to contradict the doctrine and allow the permeation of religion into the law. I don't think it is bigoted to want it off the currency and out of the Allegiance. I think it sticks true to the fact that those institutions ought to remain separate if we are to simultaneously allow free exercise and equal protection. Bigoted is, "Christians are x, they deserve less rights." I am not depriving any Christian of any right by removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance and taking it off the currency. Those are not rights you are granted. Those are conveniences of a religious history that don't have relevance and go against the Country's legal doctrine.

    We are not silencing a majority to give the minority something. We are giving rights to people who didn't have them before. We are abiding by the rule of the law, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution - the Equal Protection Clause. If marriage is a right that we grant to some of the population, then it must be granted to law. This is not suppression. This is an expansion of rights. Your right to marry is not being taken away by another's right. Don't conflate rights and opinions. Yes, those who believe gays shouldn't marry are having their opinions suppressed. Would you say the same about white people who think blacks are inferior? Probably not, right? It's the same principle. We prioritize granting equal rights over equal status of opinions, majority or minority, in this country - the way it should be.

    I agree that religion is not so black and white, but let's be honest with ourselves here: we have a great level of scientific confidence that sexual orientation is not a choice. It's not purely black and white, sure - because environmental factors may influence how certain traits emerge in certain people - but still, we pretty much know that when it comes down to it, we don't just choose to be straight or gay. Are you choosing to be straight? You'd probably say no to that. So what, a queer or bisexual person doesn't get to say the same? It's as much of a natural thing for them as it is for you, whether you can see it or not.

    I agree with Will here. Well made points.

    When the Supreme Court issues an opinion, it becomes the law of the land. They decide what is constitutionally valid - not the Executive (e.g. the President) nor the Legislative (Congress). As such, no law passed anywhere in the U.S. can prevent those of any other sexual orientation than heterosexual to get married. The only way this could really happen is if constitutional amendments passed changing the implementation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment, altering the powers of the Supreme Court, or what have you. That will never happen. A Republican President could not change this. It is not like the Affordable Care Act (e.g. Obamacare, as it is more popularly known) that can be legislated over - where it could be repealed as a law and as such the Supreme Court wouldn't have a say in it. But when the Supreme Court disallows particular laws because they are unconstitutional, only a change in the Constitution itself could undo that. And that, like I said, is virtually impossible in this day and age. Or, they could overturn it later in another decision - also very unlikely, but certainly possible.

    I agree with this particular point, but I think it's a suspicion that is fair to have. I believe every situation is nuanced and needs to be examined carefully, because Ferguson very well could have not been a matter of race. However, the fact that officers often go without indictment (which is not a conviction) in cases where racism or any police brutality is either not obvious (e.g. Ferguson) or terrifyingly so (Eric Garner in New York) says a lot about how the justice system works and how both racism and police brutality are very real things, operating hand in hand at times, with some level of frequency that cannot and must not be ignored.

    No. The law ought to apply to business too. It is not an institution free of legal restraint that allows it to discriminate so blatantly.

    Individual rights ought to come before the success of a given business.
     
  4. #64
    travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,000
    Likes Received:
    1



    A business is an individual right. Telling someone what to do with their time, property, and money is definitely infringing on their rights. Knowledge in economics should help make clear why any government involvement in the economy always leads to clusterfuckness.
     
  5. #65
    brady

    brady I am the LPA LPA Super Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    5,548
    Likes Received:
    1,900



    So I guess it's okay to pay women less because of their sex? Not serving blacks based on their skin color is okay too, I guess.
     
  6. #66
    lime treacle

    lime treacle You are not alone Über Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    10,907
    Likes Received:
    115



    Travz's point, as far as I've gathered, is that that is not okay, but that businesses should be allowed to do that, since it's an "individual right" and can only fuck up their business anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  7. #67
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,061,051
    Likes Received:
    99



    Thats his point, but it's a shitty point because in some parts of this country, a business would be applauded for firing a gay person.
     
  8. #68
    lime treacle

    lime treacle You are not alone Über Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    10,907
    Likes Received:
    115



    Agreed.
     
  9. #69
    Smoog

    Smoog Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0




    :impossibru: Nope.
     
  10. #70
    Squish Mitten

    Squish Mitten I'm a five-star general; infantry controller.

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0



    Congratulations to the LGBT community and to humanity as a whole!

    I'm telling you, stupid beliefs are declining with every generation, in a few more generations, we shall all have equal rights. Woohoooo.

    That being said I think B-Rad's point atleast was that things are attributed to racism even when they weren't meant to be racist at all. Sometimes racism isn't the problem, stupidity is. I'm differently colored and if I'm an asshole to someone and they're mean to me, it's not racist right? Even if I wasn't an asshole and someone's mean to me that still doesn't mean they're racist, right? Even though Ben made points I do not agree with, calling him a "racist shit bag" wasn't right.
     
  11. #71
    Apop

    Apop LPA VIP LPA VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,281
    Likes Received:
    1



    Ahhhh..! Good ole' white guilt at it's finest.
     
  12. #72
    brady

    brady I am the LPA LPA Super Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    5,548
    Likes Received:
    1,900



    Of course you took it that way. Oh the internet, you never cease to amaze me.
     
  13. #73
    Jesse

    Jesse Out of the abyss. LPA Über VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    297



    I'd just like to interject that there is not such a thing as "Gay" Marriage. It's just marriage. What we wanted was Marriage Equality, we have it now, fortunately. So there is no need to call it anything other than "Marriage." Or "Marriage Equality" for the sake of threads regarding the discussion of the recent SCOTUS ruling.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  14. #74
    Susy

    Susy god break down the door LPA Contributor

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    10,879
    Likes Received:
    630



    Not gonna lie, I lol'd.
     
  15. #75
    Michele

    Michele Praise Brad Delson, our Lord and Savior. LPA Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    16,558
    Likes Received:
    5,526



    ^
     
  16. #76
    lime treacle

    lime treacle You are not alone Über Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    10,907
    Likes Received:
    115



    Ages are going to pass before "marriage" becomes common usage over "gay marriage." Just like "the right to vote" had to surpass "women's right to vote." It's a process; it won't happen in a day.
     
  17. #77
    Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    41,873
    Likes Received:
    2,334



    This. Regrettably it's just part of the lexicon right now, but over time it'll change. I'm just happy to see two gay people marrying becoming legal in my lifetime. It's a proud moment.
     
  18. #78
    Michele

    Michele Praise Brad Delson, our Lord and Savior. LPA Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    16,558
    Likes Received:
    5,526



    Yeah, hopefully that happens in Germany soon too. All this comments i read so far are horrible :facepalm:
     
  19. #79
    lime treacle

    lime treacle You are not alone Über Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    10,907
    Likes Received:
    115



    It's not going to happen anytime soon with Angela Merkel as the chancellor.
     
  20. #80
    Michele

    Michele Praise Brad Delson, our Lord and Savior. LPA Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    16,558
    Likes Received:
    5,526



    Nothing positive is happen with this whole land SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page