Linkin Park - Good Goodbye ft. Stormzy and Pusha T Out Now

Discussion in 'News' started by Joe, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Rhel

    Rhel Member

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    Heh. Thanks for responding in a more mature way than I did ^^
    I know I went on a bit of a rant there.
     
  2. Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    LPA, for years in fact, tends to have this idea of "popular = bad", and generally make a point that anybody with any substantial popularity must not actually be very good.

    Historically, it seems most of the board (as a whole, I understand most of you haven't posted the entire decade I've been doing so) seem to cultivate their musical tastes based on what they think others may perceive as deep or eccentric. I have no idea what color you are so I'm not jumping into all that, however I'll wager you're almost certainly primarily a rock music fan. And your tastes in rap (and what you deem to be not very good) reflects that.

    And J.I.D, Ab-Soul, Vince Staples.
     
  3. fio1310

    fio1310 Well-Known Member

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    There's something about the collaborations on this album that I'm liking a lot better than on THP. As much as I love All For Nothing and even Guilty Or The Same, to name a couple, the ones on this album somehow feel more effortless, like they naturally should be on the track. I always felt like most of the collabs on THP felt a bit like afterthoughts, as an extra idea to make get some songs noticed, and the tracks would have sounded probably just as good with Chester and Mike only on vocals.
    On Heavy I really get the contrast between Chester and Kiiara, especially with the story the song tells, and likewise Good Goodbye just feels like an ideal summery track to have multiple rappers on for a variety of flows.
    Stormy kills it btw, in my humble opinion.
     
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  4. Iopia

    Iopia Well-Known Member

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    People think Popular = Bad on a Linkin Park forum? You've got to be kidding me. I don't care how long you've been posting here, take one look at the Other Music subforum, or look at the bands and artists usually discussed in the shoutbox. Spoiler: they're all popular.

    "You have different tastes to me so you must be doing it to look cool."

    Dude I'm sorry but you seriously need to grow up if you actually believe that. There is literally no reason to assume people are doing this. If people actually felt that way you realise they wouldn't be listening to Linkin Park, right? They're the kings of uncool. And there's a sweet irony that this is all stemming from someone saying they don't like Kendrick Lamar, the poster child for people who only listen to music that's perceived as "deep".

    And to top it all off you finish by bashing someone's taste. Nice.

    You know, it's actually incredible what you're trying to say. "You don't like X? You must have bad taste. You clearly only listen to what you think others may perceive as deep, just like everyone else on this forum who disagrees with me". It amazes me that your go-to reaction to someone not liking an artist is to tell them that not only is their taste bad, but that they're lying to themselves about what they like too? No offense, but this has to be one the most closed-minded and frankly, laughable posts I've ever read on here.
     
  5. Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    Yes. And I want to cite the general perception of Living Things 'First half lame, second half experimental and cool" on here. And there's personal preference, but there's also the idea that I (think I've mentioned once before already) feel like a lot of people here seem to grade on a curve, A for effort type of deal. Until it Breaks is weird, therefore it must be more impressive than I'll Be Gone, which is "traditional". "weird" is good, traditional boo! And I'll double down that by saying before Linkin Park's foray into blatant, unapologetic pop music, that "pop" itself, as an entire genre, was widely maligned on this board. To the point I had more than a handful of posters giving me lip when I tried pointing out the genre wasn't as simple as just blurting some shit a producer handed them and millions of radio-addicted children and idiots threw money at it.

    That's about it in a nutshell, yes. But I also want to again point out how much how much of that is painted by the perception of being rock fans first. I'd bet actual money on an anonymous survey of this board having very strong feelings about "bitches and money rap music", and not really understanding what that is other than mainstream stereotypes.

    Do you know 2pac? That classic song California Love? Allow me to triple down and say that if that song had come out in 2016- based on what how I've seen a lot of people on here talk about hip hop- most of this board would hate it immensely, and use it as a reference point for "bad rap".

    See above, and let me add that historically most of this board blames the bands occasional failures, and their hesitance to sometimes really go 100% on experimentation, on their label.

    How's that, actually? I've heard that about Kanye (and again I feel that's a label unfairly assigned to him as well), but never Kendrick. Enlighten me?

    Oh no, I'm quite convince he legitimately doesn't like Kendrick. But it's like someone who says they know about basketball because they're very into Globetrotters games. It's a valid opinion, but very likely one stemming from not really understanding the subject matter very well.
     
  6. Modern Guitar God

    Modern Guitar God LPA Super VIP LPA Super VIP

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    I really don't base my music tastes on what's deep or eccentric, because at this point it'd be pointless (I'm 28, damn near 30 years old). I don't have anything to prove with listening to certain music anymore. Also, I am not primarily a rock music fan. I'm not sure where you're getting that from? Based on the fact that I don't care for Kendrick's music much? That's a bit short-sighted. I won't go into what I listen to, since that'll be scrutinized no matter what artists I name (I do listen to more rap ironically, than rock music). I'll just say that it's premature to judge someone the way you do. I wouldn't assume your tastes in music because I disagree with you.

    The three artists you named are good but pretty typical of people who try to put others down for their tastes in rap music. Listening to mostly conscious rap doesn't make your taste any better than another person's. You should know that Kendrick was influenced a lot by Jay Z and DMX, two artists that are known more for hits and bravado than dropping knowledge and conscious-heavy lyrics (though they have that too). Maybe you should have a conversation with Kendrick about what constitutes as good rap music and whether it's fair to knock someone for not liking his music.
     
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  7. Xero-G

    Xero-G Linkin Park: Fanbase United

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    Well, this thread took an unexpected turn. It is most apparent to me that one may perceive music in ways that directly contrast the views/perceptions of another. I can understand where several different perceptions of "Good Goodbye" and its tropes/cliches are coming from, especially with how close it is to sounding like current hip-hop. As someone who largely rejects current/mainstream music (sadly, in some ways), I was not thoroughly impressed with the overall sound, nor the mainstream hip-hop nuances, found in this song.

    However, as others have pointed out, without a true sense of cultural context, some (or many) of those who listen to this song may find certain lines or lyrics to not make much sense. Just look at the reception to Stormzy's verse in particular. With the right amount of context, we soon learn that he is in fact using slang that is well-known in his area, but not really to anyone outside of, or unfamiliar with, his specific culture.

    We must also keep in mind that not everyone appreciates any amount of context to eventually like something more than they initially do. People have preferences for what they want to listen to, and may not be willing to give second or third chances to songs that just do not sound good to them the first time. First impressions are powerful forces that often play a major role in shaping lasting perceptions, after all.
     
  8. Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    I could make a comment in response to Blackee's over generalization about this forum, but it wouldn't be very nice and wouldn't set a great example as a moderator so I'm gonna keep my mouth shut.

    Love how people seem to know everything about the LPA and seem to have us all figured out. Anybody notice this? I've read at least five know it all generalizations about this forum in this album cycle alone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
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  9. lime treacle

    lime treacle You are not alone Über Member

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    Who cares. Hell, I'll freaking quote Lorde.
    The people are talking, people are talking
    People are talking, people are talking...
    Let 'em talk.
     
  10. Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    All I can tell you is what I've seen on here and argued throughout the years. Which is a heavy, heavy preference towards "indie" rap, and a near universal disdain for pop music prior to Mike Shinoda deciding that's what he wanted to do. More than any other topic, it's a board with a lot of people (the majority or not, I don't know) who will make a point to try and educate you on their purview on musical interpretation. And from my perspective, generally always exposing themselves as not entirely informed on the matter. I'm a bit disappointed I can't go back in my post history but so long, because I remember a very spirited debate on the merits and complicated creative process on "mindless pop" not terribly long ago, and made a point of how more than a couple of people played music historian while.

    2006 and had been reading for years beforehand. You're not being arbitrarily attacked by an outsider, these are ideas and sentiments I've encountered repeatedly for years by a variety of members. Have I been articulating my viewpoint in a douchey way? Probably. But my point stands.
     
  11. brady

    brady I am the LPA LPA Super Member

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    Hey guyz, I didn't like Kendrick's new album or TPAB, blackee is now probably gonna assume I know nothing about rap and I have really basic taste in music and he's way more educated on the subject.



    See what I did there? That's me generalizing what you're gonna say; something douchey and pretentious.
     
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  12. Sasuke

    Sasuke Purity Ring fanboy LPA Super Member

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  13. Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    Maybe we could get back to discussing this song? Thanks.
     
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  14. Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    I do see that! I also see nobody elaborating on that "It is in fact Kendrick himself who appeals to the pseudo intellectuals!" remark from earlier. Which suggests the person that said it had little to no basis for saying it.

    Meaning he didn't know what he was talking about.

    ... see what I did there? ★~(◡﹏◕✿)
     
  15. Iopia

    Iopia Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe it's because it takes time to write out the well-thought out reply I thought your post warranted and I have better things to do with my time right now? You literally posted it nine hours ago. Not to mention that I thought it was fairly self-explanatory.

    But if you really need an explanation that badly I'll give you one. Certain artists are perceived as "good", "ground-breaking", whatever you want to call it, while also being popular in the mainstream. In the rock world, bands like Floyd and Radiohead come to mind. This isn't a bad thing, I love both those bands to death, but it's a sweet spot few artists can achieve. Naturally, the mix of being popular enough that even your average joe with a passing interest in the genre knows who they are, combined with a general popular consensus that these bands are "good" (which includes good lyricism), attracts the sort of people who just say they listen to them because they think it makes them cool. To me, Kendrick is the number one modern day example of someone in that sweet spot. This has nothing to do with the guy or his music; an artist isn't defined by a small minority of their fans. But yes, Kendrick absolutely appeals to those sorts of people, and it really shouldn't be something to get offended over. Just worth pointing out when, you know, you're literally saying things like "most of the board only listen to what they think will make them look cool".
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
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  16. Blackee Dammet

    Blackee Dammet Feminism Is My God Now

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    I want to point out something you did there. Stay with me;

    You just named two 'ground breaking' rock groups. However those bands are several decades old, and probably would have been considered legendary long before you discovered them. So your perception of them is more likely than not influenced by that preconception. Can you do that with any modern rock groups?

    And the reason I'm asking that is because going back to what I said with 2pac (which was indeed several hours ago, though since this isn't a face to face conversation and a message board topic lasts several days and sometimes weeks I don't see what difference that makes...), would you feel confident in proclaiming a certain artist as above and beyond their peers at the moment? Not with years of hindsight and other peoples opinions influencing what you think. Are you confident in your own musical tastes to be able to really peg something as quality?

    Because I'd wager a lot of people who are so upset (apparently over the assumption that I'm mad?) couldn't. And I think that's why so many of you took the 'offense' angle, I don't think the idea of an opinion being of less weight for one reason or another is something you've ever had anyone outright argue before. Which in and of itself would be reasonable, except everyone here does it themselves. Constantly. 'Meteora kids' are widely dismissed are they not? I'm going to bring it up again, but do most of you not routinely dismiss 'pop music'? Of course you do. All the time. That's never been a problem. Shouldn't be now. "I don't think you have enough experience in the thing you're dismissing" is a relevant point. I think a lot of criticisms on here are influenced heavily by peoples outside influences instead of actual internalization.

    Read this post. Then breath, count backwards from 10, and read it again. Go back and read the posts before it. Breath, and then count again. Understand nobody is being randomly and personally attacked for not liking the (exceptional) music I like. But go back and read where I think those opinions are stemmed from. And then realize the fact that nobody has really countered them with anything outside of variations of 'fuck you I don't have to dignify this with a response!' hasn't really swayed me away from my line of reasoning.
     
  17. Tony Fields

    Tony Fields I believe in Pictureboard

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    It's not exciting, let keep the flames burning instead :halfkappa:
     
  18. Rocky

    Rocky Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you get what I mean. I'm not saying that black people don't listen to country, or that white people don't listen to hip-hop, I am saying that A LOT of LP fans are vocal about not liking hip-hop that is "too black". And since rap is predominately made by black people, I don't think we'd have a great discussion about rappers with a lot of fans like that.
    Apparently they don't listen to a lot of hip-hop but do like Eminem, Limp Bizkit, Hollywood Undead, and TOP. Shout out for helping me prove my point. Bigger shout out to the posts where the only rapper mentioned is Eminem, Aesop Rock or Yelawolf. All of those rappers are dope imo, but I'm pretty sure that if they like those rappers they might also enjoy Big L, MF DOOM, or Joe Budden in terms of lyrical content. I also think a lot of LP fans are missing out on K'naan.

    It's catchy and annoyingly mediocre. Mike could use a wider range of vocabulary.
     
  19. Meteorain

    Meteorain Well-Known Member

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    (Note : This is a long post)

    So let's see here...

    You're doing quite a bit of lumping me in with others. Comparing what I've said (apparently what I think/feel) to a general consensus you've gathered from the LPA board over the past 10+ years you've been on here. Well, check out my "Joined" date. Feb 16, 2017. 2 months. Yet it's fair to lump me in with these generalizations?

    Living Things, first half lame, second half experimental and cool. Until it Breaks interesting/experimental so must be good, and automatically more impressive, and traditional = bad.

    Nope, nope and nope. I'm actually among those who, while I don't dislike Until it Breaks and I'm glad it's in the band's discography, am not exactly clamouring for more of it, and I find myself actually shaking my head sometimes at how many people (I don't mean just here at LPA, I mean LP fan comments from all around) want more of this type, and especially those who are quick to dismiss other work because "It's not interesting" or claiming it's "uninspired" even though, really, nobody outside the band members can make that claim. Only they know what inspires them. Back to the point - I really liked the first half of Living Things. I liked Burn it Down (most of this board, from what I've seen, doesn't). I loved In My Remains and Lost in the Echo. I loved Castle of Glass. I liked I'll be Gone. I would prefer more of this style vs more of Until it Breaks, or Robot Boy just to cite A Thousand Suns since it's seen as the band's most experimental/interesting work by so many. Most of my favourite LP songs would probably be seen as 'traditional'. My favourite song from A Thousand Suns is Burning in the Skies. Traditional enough?

    You also won't find me running around blaming things on their label. I don't think they're an absolute non-factor, but I think they get blamed too often... crazy enough... like you do. Used as a scapegoat at times, etc. I generally don't even comment on this at all, actually.

    I also need to point our your basketball / Globetrotters analogy really wasn't your best work. There's absolutely nothing I've said that should be deserving of such a ridiculous comparison. You make it sound like I said "I know rap as well or better than anybody!" when in reality I actually said "I'm no rap expert and don't care to be one." You know more about rap, congrats, I really couldn't care less. I spoke up because you, after taking something I said out of context to begin with, suggested and assumed I knew nothing about rap. In which the bigger "issue" with that (for lack of a better term) is just that you assumed, without really knowing anything about me. Based on what you think "most of this board" is like. Based on a comment I wrote with intentional hyperbole.

    I can see where you're coming from what the majority of what you say, but things like this, and to suggest that not only am I just like everyone else with this, but the idea that I would criticize Kendrick Lamar because he's popular... is something I want to call 'laughable' but I don't want to because I'd like to remain more respectful than that. Though it's also like 5 am in my time zone and I don't know why I can't get back to sleep.

    To your own admission, some of the things you've said have come across as douchey. For example, why did you say "Name 3 "good rappers"" with 'good rappers' in quotes, the way you did? I even said that I saw why your first post of "Wanna know how I know you know nothing about rap..." wasn't taken badly by me, because you missed that I was intentionally responding to (I think Brandon's) post with the same terminology he used, and that I didn't actually think that harshly negatively about Lamar, though if you're only reading what I said, without picking up on what I was doing, then yeah, it could look that way. But things like "good rappers" and now recently, "My (exceptional) taste in music" (or something close to that)... it's like you want to come across as douchey now. Guess what, I think the music I like is exceptional too, and I bet you'd greatly disagree. Just like I bet I would greatly disagree that at least some of the music you listen to isn't exceptional. The way you get your comments across, with that type of tone, as well as clearly pointing out exactly how it was irrelevant anyway, is what makes me say "I'm not sure yet that your question should be dignified with a response". If you took that as "a variation of "fuck you I don't have to dignify your answer with a response!"", as you put it, then that's kind of on you, because I think I made a good effort to not be rude about it. So I'd say sorry, because I'm Canadian and we do that unnecessarily sometimes, but really, I'm not sorry for you reading something so exaggeratedly out of context.

    Another reason, as I've been trying to point out, that I didn't feel it was relevant who I thought was a "good rapper"... was that I've already said to you "I'll save you the trouble, I'm admittedly no rap expert, and I don't care enough to be one" as well as said "I didn't say Lamar was bad at his job" and referenced that Bieber is good at pop, but I don't like listening to what ends up on his albums. Lamar is a good rapper, but I don't like listening to what ends up on his albums. I was once given a Sheepdogs song to listen to by a friend who wanted to point out their talent and technical ability, and after I heard it, I said great, I can see the talent. But oh, what's this? I also don't see myself downloading it. I don't see myself adding it to any of my playlists on Apple Music or Spotify. I don't see myself listening to it again after this listen. So then I ask you, what's the point? To my ear, the song doesn't sound good. So talent and technical ability is great and all, but it's not everything. If that's all that matters for you, then great for you, that's fine. But it's not enough for me.

    I really thought pointing out those things would kind of be enough to kill this whole thing of what I do and don't know about rap, or who's tastes are better than who's, or really anything else involved in all of this. I guess I was wrong. And it seems to stem from you thinking there must be some other reasoning for why I'm not a big fan of Kendrick Lamar.

    And yes, you do have a point that for a lot of people, how they think about one type of music and what they usually gravitate towards can influence and affect how they hear rap, or any other genre, and help shape what they do and don't like. That's just human. Though I can confidently say I do make an effort to set things apart. I didn't like 99 Problems by Jay-Z just because of the prominent guitar riff in it. I don't dismiss rap songs because it doesn't sound enough like other things I like. I also have the mentality, when asked what type of music I like by friends, that "I don't really stick to any genre, I just like what sounds good to me"...and then we both usually laugh at how vague my answer is, which I then acknowledge. I've also, in my short time on this board, pointed out a few times I don't believe in genre or labels, and that's one big reason I like Linkin Park so much, because apparently they don't either. There's a pretty wide range in what I like listening to.

    I'll make it really easy for you. I don't like Lamar's cadence, and most of the time, his beat selection. Those are two important things for me, hell, I'd probably say most important. I'll say it again, that doesn't mean I don't think he's talented. That doesn't mean I don't think he's a positive in the rap industry. That doesn't even mean I flat out don't think he's good. All that really means is most of his music (except maybe King Kunta) isn't going to find itself on any playlists of mine. Is this a valid enough opinion for you? Does your Globetrotters reference still make sense? Does this mean I'm saying "I have extensive knowledge of rap"? At the same time, should it mean I have absolutely none, enough to say "you don't know anything"...?

    I'll simplify it even further, because while some things in this world are complicated, or need complication, I don't believe this is one of them. Here's my formula for liking a rap song.

    Is the artist rapping? (assume yes)
    + Do I like the overall sound of the song (voice, lyrics, instrumental) for at least the majority of the running time? (assume yes)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Good rap track/song.


    The end. It's that easy. I don't agree it needs to be any more complicated than that when it comes to enjoying music. I'm also someone who tends to overcomplicate things in life, including things that really don't need it, so I'll take any chance I can get to not overcomplicate something that doesn't need it.

    I can't tell you how many times a song has been heralded because of an extensive guitar or drum solo, or a rap verse so mind-blowingly fast that if you tried to rap/sing along you'd get lightheaded and you can't quite understand how that person was able to do that (and will continue to do it over and over in live shows)...and it's still amounted to not liking the overall product, enough to listen to it maybe one or two more times, before being done with it for good. I recognized the talent, but it wasn't enough. I'm getting redundant now and I can realize that. I'll say sorry for that and this time I'll mean it.

    Just because you have talent and technical ability it doesn't automatically translate positively to the overall sound and enjoyablity of the final product released on your album, for me. Just because you're an awesome guitarist doesn't mean you have to show it off all the time. I have no doubt Brad Delson is an accomplished and capable guitarist, but he doesn't throw in solos just because he can, like it almost feels like other artists/bands like to throw in. He put one into In Pieces, because it fit there. It worked with that song. At least I thought so. Just because you can rap a mile a minute, it doesn't mean if you get that down on a rap track that the track is automatically good, or automatically worthy of repeat listens. Again, for me. I think Eminem is good (let me guess, you smirked and said "easy/go-to choice"?) but while I can say wow, nice job, on something like Rap God, that doesn't mean I get replay value out of it.

    I've liked stuff by Tupac, French Montana, Gambino (fully aware how many hardcore rap fans don't like him or don't even consider him a rapper), Nas, Scarface, Future, Eminem, MGK, A$ap Rocky, Kanye (while also thinking some of his stuff is not enjoyable at all).... sooo you want to re-think that whole thing about not liking someone because they're popular? Or even worse, saying I like someone because of how it'll be received by others, or based on what others will perceive as deep/eccentric? I'm also sure you're going to laugh at some of those choices, which is fine also. I'm still going to cite them.

    With all due respect to everyone here, a lot of whom seem pretty cool... it's never been anywhere in me to try to blend in with a crowd. I'm the type to stick to thinking one way even if the whole world disagrees. I'm not looking for acceptance, or agreement. I listen to and respect (most) opinions, but at the end of the day what matters to me is what I think. What other people say and do and like doesn't influence what I do, say, and like.

    And yes, I won't shy away from saying I do like Mike Shinoda's rap. Kindly don't twist that into thinking I'm saying that he's better or comparable to others or that he's up there with the best of all time, or anything like that. Just take it as the stand-alone comment that it's meant to be : I like Mike Shinoda's rap. I think a lot of people don't give him enough credit. Things like Kenji from Fort Minor, Spraypaint & Ink Pens and I Have Not Begun from an Underground album, are the types of work from him I think are his best. I like his voice. I like his instrumentals. It's no coincidence, it's no secret, that that goes a longer way for me than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  20. Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    Are we done now? I think everyone in this thread is tired of seeing this battle over who has the bigger e-penis. It's wearing the patience of me, and other moderators and we'll be handing out warnings if this thread doesn't go back on topic soon. Enough is enough. Both of you have made your points repeatedly, so let's agree now to disagree.
     

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