Mass shooting at Batman premiere in Colorado

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by minuteforce, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. #81
    Andreina

    Andreina Proud Venezuelan LP fan. LPA Contributor

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    Totally this. We live with restrictions down here and criminals not only get access to guns, but to Police AND Military weapons like Kalashnikovs.. A certain regulation might be needed but to restrict gun use completely will result in what Travz says.
     
  2. #82
    Hybrid

    Hybrid Meow! This cat has claws! LPA Team

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    I think the issue lies with the individual and not the tools he used. A gun won't kill someone. A person behind the gun kills someone. Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming a spoon for making me fat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  3. #83
    SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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  4. #84
    travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    Obviously a movie theater loaded with guns still wouldn't have prevented that shooting from happening. I'm sure 99% of the people didn't know what was going on at first even until that sick fucker started shooting. It's a freak occurrence that would be impossible to prevent once he's in there. But would the crazed shooter still go through with his plan knowing a movie theater full of armed citizens would likely kill him if things went even a little wrong?

    This is another aspect of guns as self-defense that deters crime. It's not the actual firing of the gun that only protects you, but the criminals having the knowledge that someone could be carrying a gun. If concealed carry was universally accepted, legal, and encouraged instead of shunned, crime would drop significantly because the criminals would know anyone they try to rob, assault, murder, etc. would have a very good chance of killing them. Ever wonder why criminals very, very rarely commit crimes against a cop compared to the average citizen? Because they know the cop has a gun and is highly trained with it. Now what would happen to crime if the image of society was that everyone was packing heat? Still gonna rob that liquor store? Still gonna rape that woman?


    And Snail, I very highly doubt it was staged. The government just knows to jump all over stuff like this to further push their goals. They already have TSA expanding to subways, and they want it everywhere they can. It's obvious they want to completely eliminate citizens owning guns. Doing that gives government complete control over us as we are completely defenseless and pose no threat to them. Kinda like how Great Britain didn't want us to have guns when we disagreed with them in the 1770's.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  5. #85
    Susy

    Susy god break down the door LPA Contributor

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    I do that.
     
  6. #86
    shinformant

    shinformant Banned

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    Guns don't kill people. People who say "guns don't kill people" kill people. With guns.

    I'd also just like to point out the irony that even Frank Miller, the reactionary kook to end all reactionary kooks, used his Batman to express a very particular dislike of guns. He said they're for liars and cowards.

    In all seriousness though, you can natter on about legislation all you like, but it's a cultural problem as much as anything. Violence and coercion and the idea that they're the cure to all ills is much more ingrained in American culture, especially when compared to countries such as Switzerland where guns aren't particularly highly regulated and yet they do ok in terms of being peaceful, safe and relatively crime-free, that stuff like this will happen no matter what the law itself says.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  7. #87
    Hybrid

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    Dammit. You're right. You caught me. In my spare time I go out killing as many people as I can while listening to Marilyn Manson songs after reading some comic books. Looks like I'm gonna have to turn myself in now.
     
  8. #88
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

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    Guns make it a hell of a lot easier to kill people. There wouldn't be 12 dead and dozens injured if he was armed with a knife. No one could deny that.

    I've got no issue with people owning guns. If you want to carry a pistol to protect yourself, fine. If somebody is attacking you and you kill them, I have no issue (as long as it's not a hooded black teenager in a white neighborhood armed with skittles and iced tea, but I digress). But there's no need for anyone to own an assault rifle. That is taking it too far. And they're too easy to get. You can pick up an AR-15 with your groceries at Wal-Mart, and then people wonder why someone uses an assault rifle for what it's designed for.
     
  9. #89
    Louis

    Louis Message me if you need to talk. We love you all. LPA Team

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    I see the logic here - but I don't think you realize the terror of knowing that everyone around you has a gun. I cannot see a world where less gun violence would happen if everyone was armed. And besides, don't you think then that if people would resort to doing *worse* things if everyone had a gun? If they can't shoot up the place, they'll bomb the place. What happens to the usefulness of everyone's gun then? Do you really think it's a smart idea to arm people when at any given moment someone can just snap? Do you think that everyone, if armed with a gun, will be able to use it properly when such a tense situation arises? They've done experiments on this issue where they've given people guns and made them respond to simulated intense situations - and they failed. They failed miserably. You have to understand here that guns aren't a solution in these cases. We cannot respond to the use of a lethal weapon with...the use of a lethal weapon? What kind of society do we live in where we easily enable everyone to kill someone else?

    Yes, there is no doubt that someone who wants to kill will find a way to do so - it's really how these things go. But there is something wrong with the idea that someone can pick up an assault rifle so god damn easily, that someone can have all these things delivered to him in preparation for a shooting - AND NOTHING IS DONE ABOUT IT. If we had a little bit stricter regulation on the sale of weapons and who could own them, maybe this wouldn't be such a big problem. We have to be reasonable here. Arming everyone is not a solution - it's a recipe for disaster.
     
  10. #90
    Hybrid

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    Your point, I see it. I'm not a fan of automatics, but a hand gun, hunting rifle or shotgun should be left alone. The theory I follow with civilian owned rifles is Bolt-action or GTFO.
     
  11. #91
    Erica

    Erica Meh LPA Über VIP

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    But here's the thing. He would have gotten the guns either way. He would have just gone underground for it. For example, look at prohibition. When they outlawed booze people didn't stop buying and drinking. The only thing that changed was that it created a massive black market and it basically started a war between police and moonshiners/gangsters. People who own guns are very passionate bunch and I can see something similar happening if guns were just made illegal and gotten rid of. People would go through some pretty dangerous mediums to get their guns and would not take kindly at all to someone trying to take them away. So nothing would be solved and people would get the guns anyway. And if anybody is determined enough to kill a theater full of people, they're certainly determined enough to go underground to get a gun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  12. #92
    ChuckCheese

    ChuckCheese Did somebody order some cheese? LPA VIP

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    Anybody here seen Bowling for Columbine?
     
  13. #93
    Todd

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    I disagree with the whole "they'll still get guns" argument. In countries where these kinds of weapons are illegal, these types of massacres don't happen nearly as often. Yes, they happen, people do manage to get guns, but a lot less frequent than the US where they happen on a yearly basis, if not more often.

    If assault rifles were illegal, would a 24 year old, with a spotless police record and no apparent ties to gangs or organized crime, be able to procure one? I don't think buying illegal weapons off the back market would be as easy as some people make it out to be. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to buy some illegal weapons.
     
  14. #94
    Erica

    Erica Meh LPA Über VIP

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    Well that 24 year old with a spotless record new how to procure explosives and rig his apartment. Why wouldn't he be able to get a gun?
     
  15. #95
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

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    Home Depot has everything you need to build explosives. You can't ban sale of fertilizer because there are legitimate uses for it. I still can't find a legitimate use for an assault rifle.
     
  16. #96
    Erica

    Erica Meh LPA Über VIP

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    Hey, when I go hunting I don't just want to kill that dear. I need to annihilate that mother fucker :p
     
  17. #97
    shinformant

    shinformant Banned

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    I even pointed out that it was a joke and you're still letting it get a rise out of you? Really?

    You're not in a position to criticise anyway, after your spoon comparison. How reductive, using an eating utensil as a parallel for an actual weapon. Come on.
     
  18. #98
    Hybrid

    Hybrid Meow! This cat has claws! LPA Team

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    Oh, you were joking? the subforum titled "Serious Chat" must have thrown me off.:sheldon:





    I think my arguement with the spoon comparison is valid. The spoon won't magically pick up food and put it in my mouth. Much like a gun will not clean itself, find a victim for you, buy ammo, load itself, turn It's safety off by itself, enter the round into the chamber by itself, aim itself at said victim and pull its own trigger.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  19. #99
    travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]






    One of these guns falls under the definition of assault weapon. The other doesn't.

    [​IMG]

    What's the difference between these two guns? Nothing! They are both Ruger Mini-14s, just in different configurations. (Well, there is one major difference, magazine capacity. But you can also get the top model with a 20 round magazine, just like the bottom one.)



    And reports say he had an AR-15, which isn't an AK and it's not an assault rifle. It's a standard semiautomatic rifle that looks really, really scary. This guy could have done the same thing with a dear rifle.

    If it's not tear gas or an assault rifle, it would be a bomb, one that's simple that'd he'd make himself. It's madness. How do you ban madness? How do you prevent madness? You can't. The only thing you can do is arm yourself. Nobody else can protect you from madness.

    The facts are that crazies gonna crazy. If it wasn't a gun, it would have been a bomb. If it wasn't a bomb, it would have been chlorine gas or other chemicals or some combination. There are dozens of ways that this guy could have killed every single person in that theater.


    I realize that a lot of you don't understand guns or the need for them, and that your reaction to this is colored by that, but look at this from a realistic perspective. There are literally millions of guns in this country. Something like 80-90 per 100 people in the US. Without a magic wand, that is never ever going to change. Guns are part of what we are as a country and always will be with hundreds of thousands more being made every year.

    If guns and access to guns caused this sort of problem, then we would have this sort of thing happening every day. But we don't. What we have is a .000001% problem that would have happened despite any type of regulation or prohibition, or even a theater packed with fully trained, armed soldiers instead of regular citizens.


    However, every single state in the US that created some sort of conceal carry law saw crime rates drop dramatically immediately after it took effect. And it's probably not a coincidence that areas with the strictest gun control laws are also the areas with the worst crime. Gun crime has been on a steady decine since the late 80's and yet there are millions more guns and less restrictive laws.

    And how is it possible that in Switzerland, the majority of males are issued a gun at 19 (even some that may become accountants!) and they don't all just go around shooting each other?


    And one more point for this post: 12 Dead, Dozens Injured in U.K. Shooting Spree

    Shit like this just happens. The only difference in countries with gun prohibitions is that they have no way of protecting themselves from these psychos, or even the petty criminals trying to steal their wallets.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  20. Harlz

    Harlz More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me LPA Super Member

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    Guns are generally illegal in Australia.


    This shit doesn't happen in Australia. Or at least, not with the alarming regularity with which it occurs in the USA.

    It seems pretty simple.
     

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