Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Todd, Jan 4, 2008.
I'm not sure if you understood all of my last post. Never mind.
here goes my hope to find someone from this anti-health-care party.
i was aware of the discussion going on in the US, but when i was in england i had the opportunity to watch a documentation about obama's first year. it was about different voters perspectives and one thing that left me baffled was the reaction of many US citizens concerning the health insurance.
is there anyone on this board who is against it aswell and has the balls to actually say WHY and give me an argument that is not against human rights?
it was strange as i felt really ASHAMED to call myself (as a german) part of the western modern culture and had to face the biggest and most influencal country of this world to be that divided with too many people being completely stupid and hatred about their fellow citizens.
before i come to my final conclusion about this whole topic and a certain part of the american people (there was one example where an opposer called this law STEALING, yes right!) i would really enjoy reading a few inputs of some native american people, especially someone defending the current insurance system for a great amount of people simply called "don't get sick".
when you face this last sentence and call in mind what america stands for, it should become pretty obvious how fucked the need to even discuss this is.
Pretty much, the biggest concern about the anti-healthcare bill is because of the costs it'll imply. We're essentially forced to do things.
For one, small business owners will require to offer and give insurance to who they employ. They may decline if they have another health-care insurance. Failure to offer or what not is a heafty fine.
Profits is another concern. Since big insurance companies like profits, this health-care reform is a direct assault on it. Essentially, there becomes little competition due to the availability of pretty similar health-care quality for a flat-rate (possible). Since this, why would anyone charge higher for the same health-care insurance? So therefore, big insurance companies must offer more, and lower prices. If one has taken an Economics class, we all know that govt. Monopolies really harms capitalism.
Well, long story short, passing the health-care reform hurts profits. (Thats pretty much the base line for many Politicians in the govt.)
Another concern is the quality of health-care. Since it must be equal, then there must be wait. Every patient will receive the best possible care right? But then, if there's many people waiting for the same service ( Again, what's the need to have quicker service? ) then there will be waiting lines.
Lastly, a big concern is tax. For some odd reason, Americans HATE Taxes. Heck, there's even a lil group called the Tea party that's dedicated to..uh..well, Hating taxes + big govt.
Anyhow, um.. Since it's a govt. funded service, the citizens will be taxed more. In the big picture, the lower class benefits more than any other economic class. This is so as they will pay not as much, and receive just as much. While the middle class will pay more, and receive just as much, and the upper class, pay more, and possibly not even receive any benefit. Why this is important is because a strong middle class is very important to a democratic/republican/capitalistic country. The bigger lower and the shrinking middle means that you have a lower/upper, which is not good because that may cause a violent revolution, possibly.
"Don't get sick" You're paying for insurance to cover you when you DO get sick. When you get sick often, you pay alittle more. Thus, It encourages one to live a healthier life-style to prevent getting sick. The term "Shit happens" Well yeah, shit happens and thats why the insurance company is there for you.
This is all personal observation that I've been seeing, so take this post with a "maybe he's wrong" feel.
All I know is it works pretty incredibly well in Australia.
I'm a big supporter of universal health care in America, but the bill that's under consideration right now is just terrible, as far as I'm concerned. The Democrats have mishandled this bill so badly, you'd almost think they were trying to sabotage it.
It's worked pretty well in every other industrialized nation, but it's just too hard for us, apparently.
that is something that can't be avoided. somehow the new system has to be financed. while it may hurt profits it is not necessarily determined in what way, meaning how much it will cost the individual.
on the other hand (how i understand it) is the price to pay justified a thousand times by the general benefits of the healtcare system that might find its way to everyone then.
yes, there will be waiting lines which is not a big problem. we got the same issue over here in germany but if someone is in bad need for help he will get served first. while in the current system in america someone won't get a doctor when he got a cough or minor pains somewhere he will then but has to wait some time. but if you can get medical treatment, medicine that will help you and linder the pain that way a wait for 30-60 minutes shouldn't be that much of a problem.
yeah, the tea party got their spot in the documentation aswell. i think there is no one in this world who really loves taxes because they decrease your income. due to the financial crisis the americans got a lot more wealthy problems than before, therefore a tax increase is not a very popular decision. still it has its cause and i can't even recall how many times i saw a picture, video or heard/read interviews where the basic american citizen is proud to stand under his flag on the front porch and yell to the world how great america is. still when something gets developed that actually helps america in a non-military and world dominating way by actually increasing the living condition for the poor american citizens they curse their president.
it sucks that some people might have to pay more than others which, economically spoken, is not the optimal refinement. it is for a bigger cause and for a country that almost suffocates in pride about its greatness it rather shows the selfish attitude that seems to be pretty dominant.
i thank you very much for some insight, that's what i asked for and what you provided.
the same goes for us and that's why i can't understand the discussion in america.
i remember when barack obama got voted as president everyone followed his change-campaign. now that he tries to change things too many americans rather stick to republican behavior and fear it. i wonder, what did the general obama voter hope for in the first place? change needs new ways of doing things.
Timothy / Harlz. I know, surprising fact eh? Strange why it couldn't possibly happen here too. I haven't seen the health-care bill yet, but I agree. It's probably bad-timing, bad wording and mishandling ect.
Trumtram: In short: The more populated the U.S is/will be, the more it will cost each individual. Though the benefits are.. let's say a heaven-send for anyone, It is the selfish (mostly) mentality of "I'm paying for so and so's healthcare!?" or "Those Illegals also get free benefits?! Since illegals don't pay taxes like citizens, for the most part, why should they receive them ect"
Currently, if your insured, you can see a doctor, pay co-payment and call it good. Depending on the urgency, you'll probably wait. If you went to a doctors office for a huge headache, runny nose/stuffy, ect. they'll make you wait. IF your vomitting blood, or had, and some weird things, that I won't get into, you'll be in that office pretty quick. Or least, this is my theory. I mean, If you vomitted blood and shitted bricks, I'm sure that's more dire in need of attention then headache, fever, stuffy/runny nose.
Then again, It's my guess. What isn't my guess is that if your insured, it's walk in, no problem.
Problem: What if your not insured? Well, if you do need medical attention, they'll foot you the bill. If they find out that you can't pay the bill, they'll tell you off to do some things that might help you get better and help you out the door.
Yeah, Americans are weird, eh? Well. I agree that we should help everyone. I also agree that every citizen of America has a right to a chance at a decent living standard. What you probably saw is not representative of all Americans, perhaps 25-35% of Americans? There are plenty of Americans who are proud that they can say "Yeah, Moon first? yep. Leading world power? yep. Bill of rights? Yep." And many other things too. While not too often said, it is because everyone notices a war-type thing or a military showcase.
Uhh... In other words, Bad time for tax increase. Nobody wants ANY tax increase. We all, deep down, want the best for everyone. Everybody knows of the benefits of "The greater cause" yet, at the moment, many people are trying to live by, paycheck by paycheck. Humans tend to look-out for themselves first, before lending a handout (Naturally). Thus, It seems as though we are selfish (which, Technically we are. ) yet we are not ( as we want to preserve ourselves first). Economically spoken, it's worst for big-corporations, worse for business-owners and not as bad for laborers. (If taken from Employees x Cost of insurance = total cost)
No problem man. If I seem hypocritical (Note: probably sounds like I am) It's because I want to sound unbiased. Personally, I don't think America is ready for this Health-care reform just yet. Granted though, I do believe everyone shouldn't be afraid of going to the doctors office due to costs or be unable to afford insurance. Weird eh? If that confused you, just think "Okay, Don't want to be involved"
once again, thank you so much! at least someone tried to explain the situation from his perspective to someone from far away.
i just want to make clear; i do not think that every american thinks the way you or me described it. sure it is a group of people, but as it seems to me a strong one.
you gave me some precious information, thanks man!
I'm calling it right now:
Obama is a one-term president.
Being a history buff, this goes back to our country's origins imo. And is especially resurgent in recent years, especially after the 1980s with the Reagan and Bush administrations, after they had capitalized on the turmoil LBJ's reforms caused in the crime rate, people living off of welfare for years and years, etc. Nobody wants to pay for a system that countless millions can take advantage of. Hence the reason communism could never work. Human nature is to cheat the system and get off easy.
That is a bit of an extremist view on health care. If you are sick in this country, you will get treated, period. Anyway, fundamentally, there are probably very few people who are against more universal health care for all. We already have socialized medicine with medicare and medicaid and when I was in the military my health care was free as well. But there are other outlying issues that the government cannot possibly address with the mess they are trying to get passed. When, for the most part, a whole country is sedentary and eats crap food but has easy access to quick fix scams for their diet, it is a recipe for disaster. This health care mess has many angles to it and everyone has a part in figuring out how to reform it just as they had a part in screwing it up.
Sometimes I wish Texas would go ahead with their threats to secede from the US.
They'll probably start using this map in geography class:
This map looks more accurate every day:
LOL @ both maps. How ridiculously true.
Lame. It's tough for anyone to realize that being of ultraconservative or ultraliberal isn't the best way to be. :/
Tomas Jefferson is a very important and influential person, too.
This is really really really sad, and it's depressing. The future is in danger via dumb ass's. I feel sorry for the people who actually want to learn, you know, the things that will be useful to them.
Health care passed with 216 votes.
Yesterday health care was an impossible dream. Today it is an American right.
I'll be the first to say this bill isn't perfect. Infact it will need some amendments over the next few years. But Obama did in only 1 1/2 years what other presidents before him couldn't do, and what I voted for him to do: PASS HEALTH CARE REFORM!
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