War on Iraq

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by 1200techniques, Nov 4, 2004.

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Do you think the war in Iraq was a good decision?

  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  1. #61
    Link04

    Link04 Ambient

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    My opinion is my opinion. I'm not here to prove anything. I'm just contributing my opinion. I gave you my side and I got shot down horribly. I can't wait for the next topic we do this in.

    To Link04: We both know the answer to that one. But the UN has proved itself completely worthless to me after 9/11. I was never much of a fan of it anyway, but after 9/11, I officially didn't like them at all. [/b][/quote]
    That's fine. I'm just saying, don't you think it's somewhat hypocritical for the United States to condemn Iraq on this premice while
    1. The United States is in the violation of the most U.N. laws out of any other country in the world (if not, they're certainly up there).
    and
    2. The U.N. didn't back the military operation to invade Iraq.
     
  2. #62
    Vampire

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    An opinion can be incorrect, you know. Opinions can be wrong if based upon wrong information, in which yours was. Of course, how you feel on something is perfectly fine, but when you spread false information around, it's politically incorrect. I was merely pointing out the inaccuracies. [/b][/quote]
    Yes, opinions can be false. But in this case, I was just voicing how I feel on something. I wasn't saying it's either my view or no way. I didn't say your view was wrong. But I guess people have a right to feel how they want to and deal with it more aggressively than others.

    Link04: it is hypocritcial indeed. I don't feel we had any other choice.
     
  3. #63
    Link04

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    Fair enough, now let me just point one more thing out. You said:


    "Saddam Hussein was a tyrant to his people."
    Fact.


    This isn't just because you said it, but it's been said before, so I just wanted to bring something up. What makes a person a tryant? Is a tryant an absolute term? Well, it depends on your defenition of tyrant. Two of the most common definitions are:
    1. A ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner.
    2. An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.

    Words like "harsh", "oppressive", and "cruel", are, again, opinoins. Does that make Saddam a tryant? No, it does not, because someone else may think he's not a tyrant. Also, these terms are not absolute, they are relative, or based on morals. "Harsh" compared to what/who? Compared to Stalin, Hitler's not so bad, and compared to Hitler, neither is Saddam. This is just one way to look at it.

    Secondly, what makes him a tyrant in your eyes? What atrocities has he commited? He has killed his own people, yes, but in reality, many of these claims against Saddam (especially the "mass grave" incident) where carried out when Iraq was one of the only anti-communist allies in the Middle East to the United States. Back then we turned the other way. Now that we're on the other side of the fence with them, we condemn them for it. In actuality, Saddam and his regime in modern times are only a ghost of the might and power they were in the Persian Gulf War. It's my opinion that the ends of this operation have not justified it's means.
     
  4. #64
    Vampire

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    http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/reasons.html

    This defines a tyrant for me. Hope it helps. It also gives lots of my reasons as to why I feel we should be in Iraq.
     
  5. #65
    Link04

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    Beautiful!! Thanks for the link! Now I can rip apart what it says ;) . Nothing against you, just the illogical thinking that goes into biased media.

    "1. Iraq’s government openly praised the September 11th attacks on America

    * In the aftermath of the attacks on America that killed thousands of innocents from 80 countries, Saddam Hussein said, “America is reaping the thorns planted by its rulers in the world."

    This is completely irrelevant. There is no logic behind it. It is simply a ploy to demonize the enemy. A country, much less a government, is ALLOWED to have opinions that are diverse from that of our own. Maybe they actually take offense to our acts of imperialism around the world. To try to ostracize and eliminate opposing opinions is reminiscent of an authoritarian government, which is completely contrary to what Amerika supposedly stands for.

    "2. Iraq shelters and supports terrorist organizations

    * Iraq shelters and supports terrorist organizations that direct violence against Iran, Israel, and Western governments.
    * Al Qaeda terrorists escaped from Afghanistan and are known to be in Iraq.
    * In 1993, Iraq attempted to assassinate the Emir of Kuwait and a former U.S. President."

    This is a common case of generalizing. Clearly not all of Iraq shelters and supports terrorists. We have found very very little documentation to tie any link between the Iraqi regime and Al-Qaeda. Ok, let's take this bullet by bullet. The point that there are terrorists in Iraq is indeed a fact. However, I am willing to stake my life on the claim that there are terrorists in Ireland (IRA), Spain (Etna), Jordan, and our own nation who have "anti-west" ideals, a.k.a. different opinions. They are demonized as terrorists and guerillas. And what do you suppose the English crown called the Sons of Liberty, and other American Revolutionary groups? The victors get to write history, and simply, they are hardly different from the aforementioned groups, they are nothing more than revolutionaries. Second bullet: Under that logic, if I dodged the draft, and escaped to Canada, you could declare war and invade Canada. Illogical. Third bullet: Did Iraq really do those things? No, individuals did. Under U.N. law, you cannot hold an entire nation responsible for the acts of a few. These individuals do not necessarily represent the ideals/policies of the entire country.

    "3.Saddam Hussein has an appetite for nuclear weapons

    * In 1995, after four years of deception, Iraq finally admitted it had a crash nuclear weapons program prior to the Gulf War.
    * Were it not for that war, the regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993.
    * Iraq still employs capable nuclear scientists and technicians and retains physical infrastructure needed to build a nuclear weapon
    * Iraq has made several attempts to buy high-strength aluminum tubes used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon."

    Hypocritical. The U.S. has an appetite for nukes. The first bullet is pertaining to a past event. The second bullet is pure speculation; completely irrelevant. Under the third bullet's logic, I could arrest you for having money and a functioning right index finger, because you have the capabilities to go out, buy a gun, and shoot someone. Fourth bullet, uranium enrichment is also used for atomic energy, not necessarily nuclear weapons.

    "4. Saddam likely possesses biological and chemical weapons

    * United Nations' inspections revealed that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard and other chemical agents, and that the regime is rebuilding and expanding facilities capable of producing chemical weapons.
    * On at least 10 occasions, Saddam Hussein’s military forces have attacked Iranian and Kurdish targets with combinations of mustard gas and nerve agents through the use of aerial bombs, 122-millimeter rockets, and conventional artillery shells.
    * Iraq has admitted to producing tens of thousands of liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs, and aircraft spray tanks.
    * U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared, and has failed to account for more than three metric tons of material that could be used to produce biological weapons.
    * Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

    The title is pure speculation. To date, there has been no proof of mass chemical weapons, nor "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Bush has even said so. The U.S. Weapons inspector leader, also concluded this before he resigned. Saying "we were wrong." The "last ten occasions" generally occured, again, when Iraq was an ally with the United States. We did nothing about it when it first occured.

    "5. Saddam’s repression of the Iraqi people

    * In the late 1980’s Saddam Hussein launched a large-scale chemical weapons attack against Iraq’s Kurdish population killing thousands.
    * Former UN Human Rights Special Rapporteur Max Van der Stoel’s report in April 1998 stated that Iraq had executed at least 1,500 people during the previous year for political reasons.
    * Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating and burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and rape.
    * Wives are tortured in front of their husbands, children in the presence of their parents.
    * Saddam blames the suffering of Iraq's people on the U.N., even as he uses his oil wealth to build lavish palaces for himself, and buy arms for his country."

    In the 80's, again, Iraq was considered an ally. We did nothing about it at the time. These accounts of brutality occur all over the world, yet the United States has done NOTHING about other countries with the same issue. I cannot accept this as proper justification for the war. If so, we'd better be "liberating" half the other countries in Africa and the Middle East also. Saddam has also purchased weapons from the United States and it's allies.

    I'm running out of time, so I'll start to summarize:

    6-8 are common issues around the world, and again, we have turned our attention to no other country where this goes on. We can't pick and choose who we're going to liberate, shouldn't it be all or none?
    9. The United States possesses prohibited missles. Furthermore, we expect other nations to disarm while we only build our nuclear programs. Hypocrisy.
    10. http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Mi...PostWar/WMD.asp
    Read what David Kay, leader of the US weapons inspections, had to say.

    Internation law is explained here: http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Mi.../Sep11Law.asp#1
     
  6. #66
    Vampire

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    Ay yi, that was a long post. Interesting response but I still hold strongly to my views. Not saying you were trying to convince me of anything.
     
  7. #67
    Link04

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    Oh, no, I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't trying to convince you of something. There's certainly no harm in an honest debate, as long as ideas, and not people, are being attacked/countered. Honestly though, did you think the White House's official website wouldn't be a tad biased? Of course they're not going to bring up what I brought up, they choose the most subtle and easiest form of propaganda; omission.
     
  8. #68
    Vampire

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    Of course it'll be biased -- it's the government! Didn't we have this discussion before -- about everyone being biased? ^_^
     
  9. #69
    Methybrea

    Methybrea Well-Known Member

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    You didn't mention Link, that any biological/chemical weapons that might have been possessed by Iraq would have been supplied by the US during the Cold War.

    And nobody mentions that the US supplied the WMDs that allowed Saddam to gas to death 100 000 Kurds.

    Thats irresponsible if you ask me...
     
  10. #70
    Vampire

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    Have you ever seen that episode of Dave Chappelle where they had Paul Mooney do "Negrodamus?" A woman asks him "why is President Bush so sure Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?" and he answers with, "because he has the receipt." Priceless!
     
  11. #71
    salinameteora

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    sadaam a tyrant? certainly! i would say having your soldiers shoot the babies in the family if the sons of the family who is of age to join his army refuse qualifies him as a tyrant!
    iraq housing terrorists? havnt america been doing this for years as well as at one time being the main funding for a terrorist operation i.e The I.R.A who directed violence against british, irish and many others
    as for u.n law,-definition of terrorism as adopted by section 1 of terrorism act is ; the threat or use of any actionwhich involves serious violence against persons or property, endangerslife, creates a serious risk to public health or safety, in order to advance a political,religious or idealogical cause. And this is fact as i study law part time, and according to this definition that would also make president Bush guilty of terrorism against the innocent iraqi people
     
  12. #72
    Link04

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    Amen.
     
  13. #73
    linkin_sylph

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    Amen. [/b][/quote]
    Yes, amen to that.

    Bush is guilty of Terrorism. He should be charged for an illegal invasion and the massmurder of 100 000 of Iraqis, and counting. This is not acceptable. It is NEVER acceptable.
     

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