August 6 - Hiroshima; August 9 - Nagasaki

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by cloudscream, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. #41
    Dean

    Dean LPA Addict LPA Addict

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    I'd like to place myself in the "not really condoning it but not browbeating people with "ZOMG MURKHANS R EVUL" either" camp

    See what Blackee said a couple of posts ago. If it was an "act of terror" on that basis it wasn't the only one, so defining it as such becomes redundant.
     
  2. #42
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    Clearly you just hate asians.
     
  3. #43
    Dean

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    I hate everyone, and asians are part of everyone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2011
  4. #44
    Harlz

    Harlz More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me LPA Super Member

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    I wouldn't call it redundant. I'd say both sides committed war crimes/acts of terror.
     
  5. #45
    deftonesfan867

    deftonesfan867 976-EVIL

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    War isn't pretty nor is it fair.

    What's done is done, and quite frankly it was probably the only way it would have ended.

    Also if anyone should be blamed for the death of all those civilians by the A bomb it's the Japanese government for being stubborn and not wanting to surrender even after the NAZI regime had fallen.

    Probably a bit of irony in the whole Manhattan project story. Jew scientist who fled Germany to escape the NAZI oppression developed the A bomb which ended the war started by the same regime they were fleeing.
     
  6. #46
    Dean

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    That's what I'm getting at. That's why just describing it as an act of terror is redundant as an argument against it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2011
  7. #47
    cloudscream

    cloudscream Static

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    16 July 1945: The United States successfully tested its first nuclear bomb.

    August 1945: Atom bombs were dropped on Hiroshima (6 August) and Nagasaki (9 August).

    29 August 1949: The Soviet Union tested its first nuclear bomb.

    2 October 1952: The United Kingdom tested its first nuclear bomb.

    13 February 1960: France tested its first nuclear bomb.

    16 October 1964: China tested its first nuclear bomb.

    5 March 1970: The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty was signed by 189 states, including the P5.

    18 May 1974: India conducted a peaceful nuclear explosion.

    1976:
    South Africa conducted its first nuclear weapons test.

    28 May 1998: Pakistan conducted its first nuclear weapons test.

    9 October 2006: North Korea tested its first nuclear bomb.
     
  8. #48
    SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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    Basically this. It was a terrible thing, but it's in the past now, and the only thing that really ought to concern us is how we deal with problems of nuclear weaponry going forward. And as someone else said in this thread, if one positive thing came out of this tragedy it's that we do know now what a devastating effect nuclear weapons have on their targets. Imagine if we'd waited until Korea or Vietnam to drop the bomb.
     
  9. #49
    deftonesfan867

    deftonesfan867 976-EVIL

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    Also think about this.

    Nobody else has used a bomb of this magnitude on foreign soil since then.

    Not telling what might have happened if the war had been fought at a much later time in our history.
     
  10. #50
    lpboarder

    lpboarder Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, the annual bashing of the US-nuking-Japan thread. First off, the folks calling it an "act of terror" watch too much TV news or John Stewart's "news" show. Act of terror this and act of terror that. "My neighbor committed an act of terror by poisoning my dog!" How stupid does that sound? I understand why it is being used in this day and age which is largely due to the worldwide media's job to sex up any event by some organized group that may or may not injure people for some causation. So naturally it translates to anyone and everyone calling a random act of violence to now be called an act of terror. The problem with using that term is it occurred during a war, World War II to be exact. In this setting, using the term "act of terror" for the Japan Atomic bombings is simply incorrect.

    Fixed.


    Next, I dont fully condone what the US did but I understand it. It was war after all and the US's push across the Pacific necessitated either a full scale invasion of Japan itself or bombing them back to the stone age to force them into surrendering. The former was to be avoided because of all the losses we had suffered on the ground in Europe and the latter (conventionally) was not working because the Japanese simply refused to surrender. So the US went bigger and badder and presented Truman with the latest and greatest (albeit deadliest) weapon known to man. And he opted to use it (them) to necessitate an ending to this bloody war.

    That is war though. The top military commanders from the conflicting sides are not going to sit down and compare notes on who has what and complain "That's not fair, we havent developed those yet so you can't use those!" If you are big enough to pick a fight, you are big enough use what you have to fight that fight. Deal with the consequences later.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  11. #51
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    You're being silly here, not to mention presumptuous. So because someone's definition of terror is different from yours (and, no, my definition doesn't include "random acts of violence") the only explanation is they're some how indoctrinated by the crazy liberal media? The same media that championed the war in Iraq like it was a home-team baseball game and go on and on about Casey Anthony like she's actually worth valuable airtime? You think I listen to those assholes? Please.

    Now this is a sentiment I can get behind. Whether you condemn or condone the bombings, your perspective is inevitably shaped by nearly 70 years of reflection. Like I said before, I've got 20/20 hindsight on my side, so it's impossible for me to understand the milieu of the time. Now that's not to say someone can't have a firm opinion on the matter, but it is something to consider.
     
  12. #52
    deftonesfan867

    deftonesfan867 976-EVIL

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    Agreed.

    We didn't live in that era or understand the perspective they were coming from at the time.
     
  13. #53
    cloudscream

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    Why are there such things as "war crimes"? And "rules of war"? Because there are things that are considered to be excesses, even in time of war.

    IMO, the justifications for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (a military necessity in order to end the war?)are as twisted as the justifications for the bombing of Dresden, the Nanking massacre, and Hitler's Holocaust.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  14. #54
    Dean

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    It's been said already that the alternatives could have been just as bad, if not worse.

    Look at it purely from that moment in history. Truman had what was ostensibly a quick and efficient way of ending a war where plenty of terrible things had already happened, and could potentially still have happened if it carried on much longer. He also didn't have the benefit of hindsight like we do.

    If I wanted to argue for why it was a bad thing, most of it would probably be to do with how things have panned out since and not so much things actually from within the context of the war. Whenever I try to look at it from Truman's perspective I honestly find it hard to blame him that much. I don't particularly like saying it but that's the truth.
     
  15. #55
    ernieball003

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    Atomic bombs were being planned to be used in Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan. On "X-Day" seven bombs were to be used for tactical deploy and up to fifteen could've been used in total. Not only would you have the culmination of all atomic bombs but you'd also have the invading Allied forces exposed to the fallout as well.

    Bottom line is that it was war and something had to be done. The bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had the smallest projected body count all the way around. For the lack of a better metaphor it's like choosing between getting kicked or punched in the nuts, each is going to be a bitch.

    Not to forget the political implications. The USSR reached Berlin first and America wasn't about to let the Soviets reach mainland Japan before they did (the Soviets had successfully invaded Manchuria).
     
  16. #56
    ThaHandyman

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    It was a great decision. If America didn't do it, someone else would have. Not sure why (some) people act like Japan was the victim. If you stab me with a knife and I happen to have a gun...I'm gonna use it. No one could have predicted the outcome and the recurring consequences, but better us know the consequences than having to find out in perhaps an even more vile way from a malicious minded country.
     
  17. #57
    ernieball003

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    Every country is vile and malicious-minded in some shape or form.
     
  18. #58
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    Pretty much. Things are rarely that black or white.
     

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