NFL

Discussion in 'The Living Room' started by Erica, Sep 9, 2011.

  1. Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    No it's not. A system quarterback is a quarterback whose offensive scheme is built around his skill set. At Florida, Tim Tebow was a system quarterback. Their offense was based on his ability to run the football first and throw second. When he got to Denver, their offensive scheme was not based on a running quarterback. Once they installed him as their starting quarterback, they changed their offensive scheme to suit his talents, thus changing their system, and making Tim Tebow, once again, a system quarterback.

    Aaron Rodgers could play in any offensive scheme; there would be no need whatsoever to tailor an offensive scheme to suit his skill set, because he is good enough to learn any offense and thrive in it. That's not a "system quarterback," that's an elite quarterback.

    My argument about changing offensive schemes but keeping them rather similar still holds true. It's really hard for a quarterback to go from one offense (like the West Coast) to another, completely different offense. However, in my honest opinion, I think a quarterback like Aaron Rodgers (and Drew Brees) can do it with no problems.
     
  2. Minus

    Minus ohai LPA Addicted VIP

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    Students, please turn your books to page 403, because you just got TAUGHT.
     
  3. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    I always thought of a system quarterback as a quarterback that benefited from a really good offensive coordinator, not a system that was built around his skill set.

    No doubt Rogers is very good, but his backup came in and lit the place on fire, too. The same thing happened when Brady blew his knee and Cassel had a really awesome year, who really sucks now that he's in a different system. It's hard to tell how much of their numbers are from their actual skill or from their awesome systems.
     
  4. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    Another thing I think should be pointed out is that the Lions could not have possibly had a specific game plan for Flynn. He only had one career NFL start and that was a year ago. There wasn't much they could do to prepare for him. Also, the Lion's secondary is pretty shitty which was also a likely factor for Flynn's success. But with that said, he did have a lot of good throws too. I'd bet my house that a team will sign him to be their starter for next year.

    And, lastly, Willstar hit the nail on the head.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  5. lpboarder

    lpboarder Well-Known Member

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    As a Steelers fan it pains me to say this but I am feeling a Saints-Ravens Superbowl.

    Drew Brees' awesome season cannot end with a conference championship game.

    The Ravens will likely beat the Steelers for a 3rd time this year (payback for the 3x losses in 2010/11 from the Steelers and the Steelers are too injured to beat any elite teams) and they are not intimidated by Belicheat and the poor NE defense.

    I'm going to have to somewhat disagree with your system QB assessment. An offensive system is not necessarily designed around a QB's perceived strengths/weaknesses. Although, it could definitely be argued that Bill Walsh created the west coast offense around Joe Montana. But Steve Young thrived at SF as well, is he a system QB or merely a successful product of the system? Don't get me wrong, Young was one of the best QBs I have seen play in my lifetime but let's be honest too. Steve Young was a more refined (read: complete) Tim Tebow in college and in the NFL while in Tampa Bay. Bill Walsh was a genius is all I can think of to answer the question.

    The spread offense that Tim Tebow leads is hardly a system created for his specific skill set. Alex Smith and he both ran it while Urban Meyer coached them in college. Smith, however, is the better passer but they are both struggling (although Smith has been solid this year) in the NFL. But I do agree that Tebow is a system quarterback because of his specific limitations and that Rodgers could be successful in any offensive system. You have to admit though, any time a backup comes in and has a day like Flynn did, the "system QB" questions will always be brought up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  6. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    I don't see how Flacco could ever win a superbowl unless he improves a lot.
     
  7. Erica

    Erica Meh LPA Über VIP

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    he just needs to be consistent. He has moments of brilliance but then he makes bad decisions. He's little farve-esque only not as good
     
  8. Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    I'm sure you could apply dozens of definitions to what a system quarterback is, but in my opinion, and from everything I've ever learned about football, a system quarterback is exactly what I described.

    If you're a system quarterback in college, you're going to be absolutely garbage in the NFL because you can't adapt to a different (read: real) offense. All the spread-offense quarterbacks in college have amounted to nothing because they couldn't take a snap from under center and drop back because they were used to already being dropped-back five yards. The same holds true for running quarterbacks. Josh Cribbs, Armanti Edwards, Julian Edelman: these are all running quarterbacks (in college) who couldn't play quarterback in the NFL and, thus, were switch to wide receiver. There are exceptions, but, as I said, those quarterbacks are elite quarterbacks and not system quarterbacks.

    As far as the Patriots/Cassell argument goes: the Pats completely changed their gameplans and offensive scheme to suit him as their quarterback. He ran maybe 10% of their total offensive playbook. Did he have a good year? Yes. But that's because the Pats (specifically Bill Belichick) changed their offense. Obviously the Chiefs didn't do their homework with him and thought a guy with no career starts from high school all the way until he started for the Pats could be a good quarterback. There's a reason he never started for USC. He's garbage and the Pats put him in a specific system to help him succeed.

    I could make the same argument for Colt McCoy of the Browns (as they're my favorite team). In Texas, they ran a spread-option offense which favored the run quite a bit more than a normal NFL West Coast offense. McCoy was perfect in that scheme because it fit his skill set and because college isn't anywhere near the level of competition as the NFL is (because the NFL consists of elite players). The Browns run a traditional West Coast offense and because he was a spread-option quarterback with an emphasis on running the ball in college, he's been absolute garbage for the Browns, who aren't going to change their offense just because a quarterback is too stupid to learn it.

    The same holds true for most teams. That's why quarterbacks from smaller Division I schools become more successful than the ones from big-name schools like Texas or Ohio State. As I said before, there are exceptions, but that's because those quarterbacks are truly elite.

    Bill Walsh was an innovator. He wanted to change the face of the NFL and he did so with style. The fact that Joe Montana thrived in his offense only proves that there are exceptional quarterbacks who are just so good that they can kill it in any offense. There's no arguing that Montana and Steve Young are two of the best quarterbacks of all time. The fact that they thrive, as I said, in Bill Walsh's West Coast offense more proves that they're elite quarterbacks than system quarterbacks. There's no evidence that they couldn't succeed in other offenses; they just so happened to have their greatest successes in the West Coast scheme.

    As far as Alex Smith and Tim Tebow go: they were developed into system quarterbacks because of the offenses they learned in college. Tebow's offensive system was specifically tailored to his skill set; Urban Meyer's said it dozens of times (if I can find some sources I'll gladly post them). He spent four or five years in the same exact offense, never learning anything else. Usually a college team will have variances to their offense from year-to-year, but in Florida's case, they just simply didn't. They went from Chris Leak (a running quarterback) to Tebow (a running quarterback). There was no change in the system and that's what Tebow was stuck in. That's why he never learned how to pass like a real quarterback. That's why he's garbage and will never succeed in the NFL past this season. I'll admit that the dude's a baller and apparently knows how to win games, but pulling games out of your ass in the fourth quarter every once in a while doesn't make you a good quarterback; it makes you lucky, as their last few losses proved.

    Alex Smith is decent but he's nothing special. He's had a different offensive coordinator in every single one of his seasons and this season he's finally been decent because they tailored the offense around him, not expecting him to make big plays or make mistakes. That only adds credence to my argument that only elite quarterbacks can succeed in any type of offense. The 49ers had to create an offense specifically for him because he couldn't learn any of the other offenses. Unfortunately their coordinators got the axe instead of him, for whatever reason.

    —edit—
    To comment on Matt Flynn: He's not a system quarterback. In my opinion, he can thrive in any other type of offense. But, obviously, if a team does sign him, they're going to already be running the West Coast offense because, as I've said before, it's harder for a quarterback to switch offenses (which isn't to say they can't do it). A team that signs Flynn is going to want to win right away, and he'll give them the best chance to do so straight away. If he were to go to a team with a different offense (like a run-oriented offense), then the success might take an extra season.

    But Aaron Rodgers called all of Flynn's plays last Sunday. Flynn had the ENTIRE playbook open to him; they didn't cut it down, give him specific plays or ANYTHING. Flynn knew the offense by heart (practically) which is why the team was confident in just letting Rodgers call all his plays. That's very rare and also gives me cause to believe that Flynn's going to be (or can be) an elite quarterback who can learn any type of offense.

    In short, I think the argument that Rodgers is a system quarterback is completely invalid. It's like saying Ben Roethlisberger is a system quarterback. He started off as a run-first quarterback, but now he's in a pass-oriented offense (for the most part; it's not like they don't have two of the best wide receivers in the game). Roethlisberger could succeed on ANY team if there is talent around him. A system quarterback could never do that unless the offense was tailored specifically to him.

    A system quarterback's offense changes to suit him. An elite quarterback changes to suit his offense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  9. lpboarder

    lpboarder Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your definition of success. I'm fairly certain Young didnt play in any playoff games while he was in Tampa and even Montana couldnt lift the Chiefs much beyond mediocrity.
     
  10. Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    There's a huge difference between individual success and team success. You could be the best quarterback of all time but if you don't have a good team around you (meaning defense and special teams as well) then it doesn't matter how good you are.

    Except in Peyton Manning's case. He proved that he literally IS the Colts.
     
  11. jedibeaner

    jedibeaner Well-Known Member

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    Tebow = Awesomeness
     
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    The Patriots will beat the living shit out of the Broncos.
     
  13. Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    Tom Brady's going to show Tim Tebow how the quarterback position's meant to be played.

    If the only thing you can do is heave the ball down the field or scramble for ten yards, you're not a quarterback. At that point you're no better than the running back who takes snaps directly from the center in the wildcat formation.

    I respect Tebow for his ability to pull games out right at the end, but aside from that, I hate the man.
     
  14. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    Tebow suffers from really bad coaching, as well. Your stats are going to suffer when you're basically only throwing in 3rd and long situations when the defense knows you're going to pass. I've only watched a few of their games this year, but their lack of aggression hurts the offense pretty significantly.

    They said they were going to let Tebow sling it this game and they only let him throw 21 times, and only a couple of those were on first down. If they want to have any chance against the Patriots, they're going to need to score 30 probably. You're almost never going to do that passing 21 times.


    And I don't think I can handle another Patriots choke job in the playoffs again. Last year was almost too much after losing to Mark "lol" Sanchez. How that guy has managed to win more than 6 games a year is baffling, much less winning playoff games. Belichick needs to step up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  15. Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    What I don't understand are these analysts who claim Tim Tebow's becoming a better passer when he's still completing less than 50% of his passes (when 60-62% is average) and he can't complete a simple check-down pass to a running back. It doesn't matter that he can sling the ball down the middle of the field to a receiver who's wide open. Hell, my grandma could've caught some of Tebow's passes today.

    I wish everyone would get off his dick.
     
  16. ernieball003

    ernieball003 Well-Known Member

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    Tebow throws a post.

    Demaryius Thomas fends off two defenders while running 60 yards.

    ZOMGTEBOWIZUHMAZING!!!

    Awesomeness = Mediocre quarterback play

    Rex Grossman = Awesomeness
     
  17. Minus

    Minus ohai LPA Addicted VIP

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    Nobody is on Tebow's dick; Tim isn't allowed to have sexual intercourse until marriage. :awesome:
     
  18. Erica

    Erica Meh LPA Über VIP

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    HA! suck on that bitches! Timmy is the second coming! Superbowl here we come!
     
  19. Minus

    Minus ohai LPA Addicted VIP

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    Did you not read my post? Tebow ain't coming anywhere or on anyone any time soon.
     
  20. Erica

    Erica Meh LPA Über VIP

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    lol he jizzes on picture of jesus every morning.
     

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